Public Safety Committee on April 29th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Lavigne, would you mind introducing yourself since you're not on the record here?

[Brigitte Lavigne, Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada]

I am Brigitte Lavigne. I'm the director of clemency and record suspensions with the Parole Board of Canada.

Thank you for your question.

Your question was regarding whether people received notifications when an expungement is ordered. When the Parole Board of Canada orders an expungement, we do notify the applicant similarly to what we do for pardons and record suspensions. Then we provide notification to the RCMP, who will take it into their hands to have the record permanently removed from the national repository.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I'm just trying to square what the minister said. He used an example where, at the border, an individual who had an expunged record would not have proof, but I'm understanding otherwise now. Would there not be confirmation if the legislation were similar to Bill C-66? In other words, would there be confirmation that expungement had taken place?

[Angela Connidis]

Is it in the form of a certificate?

[Brigitte Lavigne]

We would provide the documentation. I believe the benefit the minister was referring to is that, subsequent to that, we have numerous applicants who return to us to request copies of their pardons or record suspensions. We reissue them once and then we notify the RCMP again, and we contribute it to the criminal record. In the spirit of the act, provinces, territories and municipalities will also go in turn to sequester the record.

We do the same in the case of expungement. We would expect that they would destroy or permanently remove it from their databases. If an applicant were to come back, that record would no longer be made available to them.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

But if the person retained the initial confirmation, they would have a confirmation.

[Brigitte Lavigne]

If they retained that document.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

There would be no record that any kind of deletion took place. I just want to make sure we're distinguishing between the record and the act of deleting the record. There's no trace of the act of deleting the record either?

[Angela Connidis]

No.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I had another question on the same issue.

When the RCMP is notified, would the minister have the ability if there were expungement...? Cannabis is legal in Canada. Supposing all records were to be expunged, putting aside any debate on the process, the minister would have the ability, in theory, to inform his American counterpart, and the agency responsible for the U.S. border could then be properly informed that this act had taken place. There's nothing preventing that. Is that correct?

[Angela Connidis]

I think, practically, that might be prohibitive for every applicant.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Not on an individual basis, I'm just saying that for anyone who has a record pertaining to possession of cannabis, those records have been expunged.

[Angela Connidis]

Yes, but it wouldn't change what the Americans already have in their database. If they already have that in their database, it won't mean anything to them.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Speaking of the American database, am I correct in my understanding of the Criminal Records Act that the minister has the ability to share information, even from a suspended record, with a country allied to Canada?

[Angela Connidis]

I am not sure that's under the Criminal Records Act. I would have to check. I'd be happy to get back to you on that.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Is there any concern that if an individual obtained a record suspension and then went to the border, they might, if they're asked if they have a criminal record...? Has it been your experience that individuals sometimes mistakenly will say no or not think of the proper way to answer the question? I'm going back to how the question being asked on the job application or the apartment application might be if you have a record suspension for a crime for which you were convicted. If a U.S. border officer says it, they might frame the question differently. Is there any data on how often that happens?

[Angela Connidis]

No, I don't have any data about that.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Okay.

In response to an earlier question, we were talking about how to get the word out that this service would be available. What went wrong with Bill C-66? That was seven out of 9,000 people.

[Angela Connidis]

It's hard to know if anything went wrong. We estimated how many people would have those records. Let's remember that the last charges were back in the late 1960s, so a number of years have gone by. We did think to ourselves that there are people who may just not want to bother. That was one of our considerations when asked about automatic pardons. Some people just don't want to have to tell people about it. They don't want to wake it up, or they may have died.

I don't think it's a lack of information. Within that community, information is shared very broadly and we did have a very active campaign.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

In any of the thinking that's gone on around this legislation—and I say this with all due respect and I recognize the importance of that issue—even though there are issues with the rollout, which is to say issues with Bill C-66, and naturally, there's a difference of age and things of that nature.... You've referred to individuals who might have passed away.

I'm just wondering. If we're looking at this particular issue we might have younger Canadians who might be more inclined to want to have some kind of clemency, whether through expungement or record suspension. Has any thought gone into some of the reconfiguration that might be required, given the difference in clientele—if you'll forgive my use of that phrase—in this particular instance, of Canadians who might see a need for this longer term because they're not just reawakening an older issue? They might be in their thirties, let's say, and have difficulties getting a job, for example.

[Angela Connidis]

I'm not quite sure. Do you mean in our approach to attracting them and the outreach?

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Yes. There seems to be some thought within the department that you're providing some of the thinking behind why Bill C-66 might not have been successful. Have you looked at how it might play out differently this time and how to accommodate that?

[Angela Connidis]

As I said, I wouldn't associate Bill C-66 with being unsuccessful. I think the outreach was there. We have no data to show that it's because people didn't know about it. It's their free choice to apply.

With respect to cannabis and the pardon for simple possession of cannabis, the outreach strategy is quite different because we know we have a broader range of clientele. It's not a specific group per se, like the LGBTQ2 community. There are many people in marginalized communities. There are youth, which is one reason for using social media. We're changing the way the application process is, to simplify it with online access, etc.

Perhaps Brigitte or Ian would like to contribute.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave the answer at that point, but before I turn it over to Mr. Picard, Mr. Dubé asked a question to which you gave a bit of an undertaking. Maybe, just for clarification, you should ask the question for the record so we all understand the response you gave.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I appreciate that, Chair, because my time did run out. I'm just wondering if we can get confirmation on whether or not the Criminal Records Act allows the minister to share information pertaining to suspended records with allied countries.