Evidence of meeting #159 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was conviction.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tom Stamatakis  President, Canadian Police Association
Annamaria Enenajor  Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty
Julia Nicol  Committee Researcher
Solomon Friedman  Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Ladies and gentlemen, it's 3:30, we have quorum, and I want to respect witnesses' and members' time, so we are now in session. This is the 159th meeting. My goodness, this is a hard-working committee if I've ever seen one.

We have two witnesses for the first hour, the first from the Canadian Police Association, and the second from Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty.

At the end of the first hour, I'm going to ask someone to move acceptance of the subcommittee report. I'm going to ask Mr. Eglinski to be ready, since he's been so friendly.

With that, we'll simply ask the witnesses to speak in the order in which they're listed.

From the Canadian Police Association, we have Mr. Stamatakis.

3:30 p.m.

Tom Stamatakis President, Canadian Police Association

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to appear before you this afternoon as part of your committee's ongoing study of Bill C-93.

I'm appearing this afternoon on behalf of the Canadian Police Association, which, as many of you know, is the largest policing advocacy organization in the country, representing over 60,000 front-line civilian and sworn law enforcement professionals from coast to coast to coast. Our members are the proverbial “boots on the ground” when it comes to issues of public safety and are the first to feel the effects of decisions made by elected officials at all levels of government.

As is my usual habit, I want to keep my opening remarks relatively brief to allow for as much time as possible for your questions and comments, particularly given that the subject matter in Bill C-93 is relatively straightforward.

At the outset, let me say that the Canadian Police Association is generally supportive of the goal of Bill C-93. While obviously we have seen a significant change in the legal status of cannabis within the last year, there is no doubt that social attitudes towards marijuana have been changing for quite some time. We certainly see it with the policing level and with the general public as well. While we often hear the popular term “war on drugs” with respect to policing attitudes around these substances, which aren't just limited to cannabis, most police services in Canada, in my experience, if not all, have long since de-emphasized enforcement for simple possession.

Now that the legal framework has caught up to the social attitudes, there isn't any good reason, in my opinion, to deny people who have otherwise been law-abiding members of society being given a clean record and a chance to fully participate in areas that might otherwise have been denied to them on the basis of a past mistake. On that basis alone, our association is generally supportive of this legislation.

That said, we would like to take this opportunity to express some concern about the automatic nature of record suspensions being proposed by this bill. There's absolutely no doubt that the overwhelming majority of applications that will be made under these amendments will be from individuals who pose no ongoing risk to public safety, and they should certainly be dealt with as expeditiously as possible.

However, I would note that there will also be some applications made by offenders where simple possession may have been a charge that was arrived at based on a plea agreement with the Crown and down from a more serious charge. In those circumstances, it is possible that both the Crown and the court may have accepted the plea agreement based on the assumption that the conviction would be a permanent record of the offence and would not have accepted the lesser charge if they knew this would be cleared without any possibility of review at a future date.

While I understand that it would be both impossible and entirely unfair to hold unproven charges against someone, even in the case of a plea bargain, I do believe that this legislation could be quite easily amended to ensure that the proposed changes to the Criminal Records Act— specifically, the addition to section 4.1, which bars the Parole Board from conducting any evaluation of the applicant's history—don't allow habitual offenders to slip through the cracks.

An amendment that would allow the Parole Board to retain at least a slight amount of discretion to consider an applicant's conduct since conviction, or certainly any subsequent convictions, would alleviate any concerns police might have about ensuring community safety isn't compromised by the small number of repeat offenders who might take advantage of this legislation, and it will maintain the reputable administration of justice.

As I mentioned, I do want to keep these opening remarks brief. The legalization of cannabis has certainly been a significant change for front-line law enforcement, and I should note that it is a testament to the professionalism of our members that the transition to this new regime has been remarkably seamless over the eight months since the changes were enacted.

This legislation on the whole seems like a common-sense approach toward ensuring that criminal records reflect the new consensus around cannabis in Canada. We appreciate that the government has been very forthright in consulting with law enforcement experts as they've proceeded with this policy change, and we look forward to continuing that consultation.

We believe that Bill C-93, with a few small amendments to ensure that the Parole Board retains some amount of discretion to ensure long-term and habitual offenders are held accountable, will allow people to avoid the stigma of a criminal conviction and give those who deserve it a much-deserved second chance.

Thank you very much for inviting me appear before you today.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Stamatakis.

For Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty, we have Annamaria Enenajor. You have 10 minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Annamaria Enenajor Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty

Thank you.

Good evening, Mr. Chair, and members. My name is Annamaria Enenajor. I am a criminal defence lawyer and the founder and campaign director for the Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty.

The Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty is a not-for-profit advocacy group focused on righting the historical wrongs caused by decades of cannabis prohibition. It was founded in April 2018, not too long ago, in response to the absence of federal legislation addressing the stigma of previous convictions for offences that would not longer be illegal under the Cannabis Act. Since then, the campaign has been calling on the government to enact legislation to delete criminal records relating to the simple possession of cannabis. We believe that no Canadian should be burdened with a criminal record for minor, non-violent acts that are no longer a crime.

It is an honour to appear before you today, and I offer you some observations and modest recommendations with respect to Bill C-93. The campaign supports the implementation of measures to remove the stigma of past cannabis convictions that disproportionately impact marginalized Canadians. As it is currently drafted, however, Bill C-93 does not go far enough.

The story of enforcement of cannabis possession offences in Canada is one of historical injustice and inequality. Canadians of different backgrounds consume and possess cannabis at comparable rates. In fact, Canada has one of the highest rates of cannabis consumption in the world. In 2017, 46.6% of Canadians—almost half of Canadians—admitted to using cannabis at some point in their lives.

Despite this widespread consumption, a growing body of social science evidence has shown that not all Canadians face the same consequences for these actions. Racial profiling and suspicion of specific groups on the basis of stereotypes means that some Canadians are more likely to be closely scrutinized by law enforcement than others. Black Canadians, indigenous people of Canada and low-income Canadians are more likely to be stopped, searched, arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated for cannabis possession offences than white Canadians. This is not a tragic and accidental phenomenon. This is a historical injustice and a systemic charter violation that cries out for redress.

The equality provision of the charter was intended to ensure a measure of substantive, and not merely formal, equality. The Supreme Court of Canada has consistently held, beginning with the case of Eldridge, 1997, that a discriminatory purpose or intention is not a necessary condition to finding a violation of the equality provision of the charter. It is sufficient if the effect of the legislation, while neutral on its face, is to deny someone equal protection and benefit of the law. To the extent that the government seeks to draw distinction between laws that are discriminatory on their face and laws that are discriminatory in their effects, a distinction is illegitimate for the purpose of our constitutional protections.

While historical cannabis protection laws were not discriminatory on their face, they most certainly produced discriminatory effects in their enforcement. They perpetuated disadvantage on the basis of race, ethnic origin and colour, all of which are prohibited grounds under the charter.

The unequal and disproportionate enforcement of cannabis-related offences on this scale and of this magnitude encourages distrust and resentment of law enforcement, cynicism towards the administration of justice and an understandable sentiment that the promise of substantive equality under the charter is a myth for many Canadians. An appropriately powerful response to this shameful history is therefore also necessary to maintain the integrity of our justice system.

While the campaign applauds the government's willingness to recognize the disproportionate stigma and burden that results from the retention of conviction records for historical simple cannabis possession, we believe the bill does not go far enough.

Given the serious consequences of a cannabis possession conviction on the lives of Canadians and the legacy of inequality through disproportionate and discriminatory enforcement, the federal government must respond to this historical injustice with a measure sufficiently powerful to denounce a shameful history. People with simple cannabis possession records should be put in the same position as those millions of Canadians who did and who continue to do the exact same thing.

While it was criminal, they did not face any consequences because of factors that have no bearing on their moral culpability or criminality—factors such as their race, income, family connections and their neighbourhood of residence. As a result of that, they were never arrested and never convicted and were able to proceed through their lives with opportunities that were not available to other Canadians. As a result, Bill C-93 should be amended to provide for free, automatic, simple and permanent records deletions for simple cannabis possession offences.

If the government is not willing to go that far, then we suggest that there are other aspects of that kind of regime that the government could tap into that would still be satisfactory. For example, the government could incorporate aspects of an expungement scheme that could improve the bill's utility and allow for the implementation in a way that would benefit as many people as possible.

For example, on Monday when this committee met last, we heard that because of our decentralized and often archaic record-keeping practices, attempting to find and then destroy all relevant records would simply be too arduous. Just because we can't do this for all records doesn't mean we can't do it for some, and in fact, for the most important. As the honourable Ralph Goodale mentioned on Monday, while records relating to criminal offences do not exist in a single national database, records for convictions that have the greatest impact on jobs, volunteering and travel, in fact do.

The Canadian Police Information Centre, CPIC, is a national database maintained by the RCMP. If someone is arrested, charged and convicted of a crime, this record exists in the CPIC database. When an employer asks for a background check, for example, and requests it from the RCMP, the RCMP doesn't dispatch agents to rummage through courthouses to get all these disparate court records and information about an individual. They scan CPIC. When Canada discloses conviction information about its citizens to the United States, it also doesn't send photocopies of papers in boxes that are all across the country in disparate jurisdictions. It shares one database: CPIC.

Whereas we can't delete all records, what we can do is target one extraordinarily important database. Automatically removing all simple cannabis possession offences from CPIC would go a long way to alleviate the impact of a conviction from the lives of Canadians, even though this would not constitute a full expungement.

The automatic deletion of CPIC entries in relation to simple cannabis offences is also a cost-effective way to provide immediate relief to Canadians. An application process involving the collection of records from provincial, territorial and local police databases involves delays and hidden costs. Even if Bill C-93 eliminates the $631 application fee ordinarily required for record suspension applications, applicants may still need to pay for fingerprinting, court information and local police record checks, which can add up to hundreds of dollars.

There has been some discussion in this committee about whether record suspensions assist Canadians when crossing the border to the United States. I'd like to speak very briefly about that, and I could be asked more questions about that later. Record suspensions do not assist Canadians seeking to cross the border to the United States. The United States does not recognize any foreign pardon, irrespective of the effect of conviction. In fact, neither foreign pardons nor foreign expungement are effective in preventing inadmissibility to the United States. They are essentially equally useless.

I have provided to this committee fulsome submissions in writing that outline further recommendations, points and observations about this law. However, I wish to conclude with our primary recommendation, which is this: Bill C-93 should provide for the permanent and automatic deletion of all conviction entries for cannabis simple possession in the CPIC database.

Our subsidiary recommendations are outlined in our written briefs.

We hope that the recommendations that we proposed would increase the bill's utility, assist in achieving its stated goals and allow for implementation that would benefit as many people as possible.

Thank you for your time.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you very much.

With that, we turn to Ms. Sahota. Seven minutes, please.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to find out a little bit more about cannabis amnesty. I guess I didn't get a chance to really do my homework.

You are the founder of that organization. When was it created and what was its purpose at the time?

3:45 p.m.

Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty

Annamaria Enenajor

It was created around April 2018.

I am a criminal defence lawyer. A lot of my clients face criminal charges with respect to cannabis. One thing that you can tell is that I'm a relatively recently called lawyer. I haven't been practising for very long, but one thing that quite surprised me is that often when it comes to offences, people are less afraid of the actual sentence and more afraid of what it will do for them for the rest of their lives. That stunned me. I thought that you do your crime, you do your time and you move on. I found it particularly disheartening that people who were trying to get their lives back on track were essentially being sabotaged by a system of information disclosure that prevented them from getting jobs, getting volunteer placements or travelling, for example, because of the stigma attached to having previously committed a criminal offence.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Where is this organization based?

3:45 p.m.

Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty

Annamaria Enenajor

It's based out of my office in Toronto.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

I found it interesting. We were exploring on Monday that.... You've obviously been through the costs of fingerprints and court records and police record checks. I was wondering if either of you could give us some insight as to how much a police record check and obtaining court documents would cost in the regions where you practise.

3:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Association

Tom Stamatakis

I couldn't give you a specific answer. It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

The jurisdiction that you are working from....

3:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Association

Tom Stamatakis

My home service is in Vancouver, and to be very blunt about it, I haven't dealt with a record check or any fingerprinting for some time in that jurisdiction. I don't know what the cost is at the moment.

3:45 p.m.

Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty

Annamaria Enenajor

I don't have the answer for that, but I know where I can get it. I've been speaking to a group of young entrepreneurs who work out of the Ryerson legal innovation centre in Toronto, who have designed an app that tries to help people streamline and manage better the costs of doing a pardon application. It's called ParDONE.

Through my association with them, they've done a lot of the research about the disparity across the board in the application for pardons.

3:50 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Association

Tom Stamatakis

I will get you a few examples from a few jurisdictions. I don't know if you want me to send them on to the committee.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Yes, that would be useful. Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty

Annamaria Enenajor

I could reach out to them as well because I know they've created a database for the cause. It varies. I know in my jurisdiction it's around $50 for a local police check. I can't remember whether it's Regina or Winnipeg, but I think it may be Winnipeg where it can be up to $125.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Does ParDONE represent people in filling out their pardon paperwork? Do they have a cost associated with that?

3:50 p.m.

Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty

Annamaria Enenajor

Yes, they do.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Do you know what their cost is?

3:50 p.m.

Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty

Annamaria Enenajor

I'm not sure. I haven't really talked to them about the cost model because our discussions were focused on providing it pro bono because we are not-for-profit. They did mention that even with attempting to reduce the costs as much as possible because of the ancillary costs of fingerprinting.... Even if you get rid of the $631, there's fingerprinting, a local police check and a background check.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Would your organization be able to provide services as pro bono work in helping people go through the process?

3:50 p.m.

Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty

Annamaria Enenajor

That's certainly one thing we're contemplating, once the government has passed legislation on pardons. We would be very much interested in assisting people as much as possible. However, until we see the model the government is implementing for the purpose of pardons, it will be difficult for us to know whether we are capable of doing that.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

You talked about automatic deletion. We were informed on Monday that automatic deletion would be very difficult to do. Because of the way the charge is listed in CPIC, prior to 1996, it would be a narcotics possession charge or conviction, and post 1996, it would be seen as a possession of a substance in schedule II.

3:50 p.m.

Founder and Director, Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty