Public Safety Committee on May 17th, 2016

[Richard Kent]

Yes.

We need to provide more information to both the federal government and the community leaders, the elected officials themselves, on how to handle the PTSD and emotional problems within the communities.

I heard you mention the non-traditional first responders in relation to corrections. If you want to talk about non-traditional first responders you need not look any further than first nations. When we have a fire there the entire community responds; it's not the fire department.

Our fire departments are true volunteer fire departments in 95% of Canada. That means they don't get paid anything if they respond to a fire, if they take training. Our other volunteer departments across Canada get paid a wage when they're responding to a fire.

When we go or I go or I send someone and train firefighters, I'm training a new batch of firefighters every time because we have to make sure somebody shows up at a fire and hopefully somebody with some training. When the fire trucks show up at a fire, the entire community is there to grab a hoseline and fight the fire.

We have non-traditional first responders because we're talking about an entire community. We have to look at it in that light, and that needs to be studied a little further.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Fine, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

Monsieur Di Iorio.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Like my colleagues I want to express my thanks to the witnesses who have been kind and generous enough to travel here to come and speak to us, as well as to those who were unable to stay after the interruption.

My first question is for Mr. Kent. It refers to the answer he just gave. It seems he had foreseen my question.

If I understand correctly, the firemen who are members of your organization are for the most part volunteers. You spoke of more than 90%.

[Richard Kent]

Yes, most of our first nations firefighters in Canada are volunteer firefighters. There are very few who aren't.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Kent, could you enlighten us about one point, given that particular feature? When a volunteer is injured in his work as a firefighter, is he compensated? Is he supported in one way or another?

[Richard Kent]

It all depends on the band, on the insurance the band has for its employees. They have to make sure there is specific insurance that would cover what we would consider a firefighter for the band. We don't have a whole lot of information on that.

We have had instances where someone responded to a fire within the community and had an injury, broke an arm or a leg. Their main job was at a mine, let's say, up north. In some cases, they had no insurance and had to work through it without pay. We have to look at ensuring that the band has insurance for all the firefighters.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Kent.

My next question is for Mr. Stapleton or Mr. Neufeld.

Has any work been done to determine how prevalent suicide is among your members? If so, has a link been made between that phenomenon and the exercise of their duties?

[Stanley Stapleton]

I'm not aware of any studies. Corrections would have more information with regard to that. However, on a personal note, I know of individuals who have, after traumatic incidents, unfortunately, taken their own lives. It's something we have to live with every day. You go through a stressful situation where you see people die or seriously injured, and often it's difficult to absorb and deal with.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Representatives of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers testified before our committee. They told us about many aspects of their work and we are very grateful to them.

Can you tell us about the interaction you have with correctional officers in the course of your work?

[Stanley Stapleton]

Over the years, having been a correctional officer in the early eighties, I can tell you that the role of the correctional officers has changed significantly.

In the early eighties, correctional officers were much more like the other individuals in the institution. You didn't carry pepper spray. You didn't carry weapons. You didn't have your vests or protective gear. Now correctional officers have all this stuff, whereas the members we represent don't have any of this equipment. We're in there by ourselves, interacting in a much more natural environment than that of correctional officers.

We have a decent relationship with correctional officers, but we play much different roles. It is our members who are, for the most part, providing the tools the offenders will have when they reintegrate into society and get back into the community.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

There is something else unique about your work.

People who do things who cause your members to suffer from post-traumatic stress have often, in many cases, themselves been victims of events that caused them to suffer from post-traumatic stress. There is a duality there. These people do certain things, but were also subjected to them.

Can you enlighten us about that dynamic that exists in your institutions?

[Stanley Stapleton]

When you are aware of that—of course you've read the files—you understand the offender and you're much more protective of yourself, much more cautious. You put up a bit of a wall, and it becomes difficult sometimes. Program officers deal with these types of situations, where they're trying to provide new tools for these offenders, because of the abuse they have endured over their lifetime. It's very difficult. It becomes stressful because you are aware that you are in a dangerous situation when you understand the crimes that some of these folks have committed.

[David Neufeld]

The major difference between correctional officers, parole officers, and program officers is that parole offices are the ones who develop what we call the correctional plan. They develop the plan that follows them from the beginning of their sentence to warrant expiry. The interaction that we have with offenders is far more intimate, more reintegration focused. These are efforts that a lot of people don't understand. The involvement of correctional officers is more static, although there is dynamic security involved. This exchange of information between parole officers and program officers and correctional officers affects the overall safety of the institution.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

You used the expression “dynamic security”. Can you define that term for us?

[David Neufeld]

“Dynamic security” is the information that we receive through various sources. If inmates are aware that something is going on, they may come to us, and then we share that information with the correctional manager or the correctional officers. It's part of trying to keep our institutions secure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm afraid we need to end there.

Thank you for your testimony today. It was very helpful to us.

I want to remind the committee that on Thursday we'll have witnesses in the first hour. Be prepared to give instructions to the analyst on Thursday. Recommendations for the report will be received until Friday at 5 o'clock. The other reminder is that the minister will be coming on Thursday, June 2, for supplemental (A) estimates, so get yourselves ready.

That leaves May 31 as an orphaned meeting. We don't need a decision on this, but I'd like to give a heads-up. Howard Sapers has been given a one-year extension on his order in council, and it has been referred to us, whether or not we want to take the opportunity to question it. The order's been done. This gives us a chance to say whether we agree with it or not, and it also gives him a chance to talk to us. I was thinking about that as a possibility for the meeting of May 31. Thoughts?

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

It's already been done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

It's been done, but it gives us a chance to hear from him and ask questions. Otherwise, I have to figure out something to do on May 31. It's an orphaned meeting in the middle of our study. You might want to think about it. We can talk about it on Thursday, but that's a heads-up for you.

All right, thank you.

We'll adjourn the meeting.