Evidence of meeting #43 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was activities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
That's what I noted. Section 8 starts with paragraph (a), which states the following:
8. The mandate of the Committee is to review (a) the legislative, regulatory, policy, administrative and financial framework ...
Do you know what that means?
4:15 p.m.
Full Professor, École de service social, Université Laval, As an Individual
I think that, in terms of the regulatory, policy, administrative and financial framework, it means that we want to know whether our agencies are relatively well equipped to handle what they themselves define as national security and also what the parliamentarians will choose to define as national security. It also probably means determining whether the legislation gives enough power to agencies to carry out their work, but no more than that, and whether the regulations according to which the departments manage the agencies under their responsibility enhance effectiveness and ensure the rights of Canadians.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
I noted that you agreed with paragraph 8(a) and you found it acceptable. However, you had a problem with paragraphs 8(b) and 8(c).
Paragraph 8(b) provides for the review of any activity carried out by a department that “relates to national security or intelligence.” However, the same notion of national security and intelligence is found in paragraph 8(a).
Basically, it says that if these issues affect departments rather than agencies, the committee can review them regularly. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't have a problem with this.
4:15 p.m.
Full Professor, École de service social, Université Laval, As an Individual
No. I don't have a problem with reviewing the departments. The problem arises when we talk about “activities.” Does it mean that the list of activities will be reviewed, and of the thousand activities, three will be scrutinized?
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
It clearly refers to any activity that “relates to national security or intelligence.” The same terms are used in paragraph 8(a).
Paragraph 8(c) obviously refers to a minister. This paragraph seemed to bother you. Why would there be an objection to a minister asking the committee to review a national security issue if, over time, national security had become the committee's specialty?
4:15 p.m.
Full Professor, École de service social, Université Laval, As an Individual
Paragraph 8(c) concerns me less than paragraph 8(b).
Paragraph 8(b) refers to a committee that focuses on operations and activities, or on “... any activity carried out by a department that relates to...” However, paragraph 8(a), which refers to “the legislative, regulatory, policy, administrative and financial framework,” is much broader. It deals with the policy and legislative aspect, whereas the other paragraph deals with operations and practices. Does the committee of parliamentarians need to duplicate the work done by review agencies that already exist?
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
If you look closely, these aren't agency activities. They're department activities. The departments aren't investigative and review agencies. We're talking about departments here.
4:20 p.m.
Full Professor, École de service social, Université Laval, As an Individual
Yes. However, there's quite a long list of departments. If we want—
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Do you know of any departments that carry out review and intelligence activities? I'm not aware of any.
4:20 p.m.
Full Professor, École de service social, Université Laval, As an Individual
Are you asking me whether intelligence activities are carried out within the departments?
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
No department carries out intelligence or spy activities. The agencies carry out those activities.
4:20 p.m.
Full Professor, École de service social, Université Laval, As an Individual
The agencies carry out those activities, but there are still possibilities. Many analysts and intelligence processing centres fall directly under departments. They don't work for agencies.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Can you name one? Is there a department with an intelligence processing centre?
4:20 p.m.
Full Professor, École de service social, Université Laval, As an Individual
Yes. The Canada Revenue Agency conducts cross-checks and communicates with the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, or FINTRAC. There's also the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
The Canada Revenue Agency carries out intelligence activities?
4:20 p.m.
Full Professor, École de service social, Université Laval, As an Individual
Yes. The Canada Revenue Agency carries out intelligence activities and works with FINTRAC to obtain information on the funding of various activities.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Okay. I see the time passing, and I have some questions for Mr. Therrien.
Mr. Therrien, section 33 of the bill reads as follows:
33. The Governor in Council may make regulations (a) respecting the procedures and practices for the secure handling, storage, transportation, transmission and destruction of information ...
Who should establish these regulations? Should it be the government or the committee?
4:20 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I didn't understand the last part of your question.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Should these regulations be established by the government or by the committee itself? We're talking about the destruction of information here.
4:20 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
We're dealing with the committee of parliamentarians' independence or lack thereof. Under the bill, the committee reports to the Prime Minister. The committee is therefore part of the executive. In this context, it would be normal for the Governor in Council to establish the regulations.
However, this model isn't the only one. There may be a model in which the committee is more independent from the executive and could therefore establish regulations or rules for these issues.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Okay.
You said earlier that
the committee “should not be subject to limits”
regarding the notion of
“injurious to national security”?
4:20 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I was talking about the mandate. I think the mandate should not be subject to exceptions or limitations.
In terms of access to information, the limitations in the bill should be reduced.
In terms of the type of report, certain limitations may be reasonable.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Paragraphs 8(a), (b) and (c) describe the mandate. However, Professor Leman-Langlois has just told us that the mandate is already very broad. Paragraph 8(b) doesn't restrict the mandate. Instead, it broadens the mandate, given that it includes the departments' activities. Paragraph 8(c) also broadens the mandate.
4:20 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
My opinion is slightly different from the opinion of the other witness.
I think—
