Public Safety Committee on Oct. 17th, 2017

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

The question is, if I can rephrase it.... There are other indigenous border communities that find themselves in perhaps not the exact same situation as your community, but the issue is not limited to your particular situation. Also, we have to keep in mind that the changes are not going to be felt by the traveller. There are changes within CBSA and changes that are applicable to information sharing.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

Yes. A number of the communities—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's not meant to impact or make things more complicated for the traveller.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

A number of indigenous communities are impacted by situations similar to what our community faces, but I will reiterate that it's not to the magnitude that we are. There's not another indigenous community that is in two countries and two provinces.

When we talk about the impacts of the legislation on regular travellers, again I have to reiterate that regular travellers do not travel across the border to the magnitude that the members of Mohawks of Akwesasne do. Don't get me wrong. There are a number of border communities across the country, but there are not 12,500 Mohawks who live on both sides of that border. I can't stress enough that we are greatly impacted, to a large level.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Okay. Understood, certainly.

Can I ask you a question of clarification? You were quoted in August 2016 in an interview in an American publication. They asked you about native Americans coming into Canada and the complications that might pose at the crossing. You said with regard to native Americans entering Canada that it “happens a few times a year” that there are issues of delays and people being held back. The word “few” caught my attention. It implies that it's not happening very much.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

No. In fact, it actually happens quite a bit.

I'll tell you that, being on a border community, our people are prepared to understand what is required. If a Seminole Indian comes from the far south of the United States and winds up at a border crossing in Canada, they probably won't be well versed in what is needed and what is required of them. If they were to provide their Seminole identification card, it would not be recognized by the Canada Border Services Agency as a document that recognizes them as an Indian.

For Mohawks born in the United States who may not be registered as Indians under the Indian Act, they will end up showing up and providing a piece of identification that is acceptable—against what they believe in, though—the reason being that they probably want to get into the country without problems.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I think you're touching on the Jay Treaty, which I don't want to get into right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos, for not getting into the Jay Treaty.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It was good of you to do that.

Thank you, Grand Chief.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have seven minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Benedict, thank you for being here.

You mentioned in the letter you sent to the committee that the special representative, Fred Caron, worked on a report that he submitted to Minister Bennett.

Is this report directly tied to Bill C-21 or does it stem from a previous request? If the report had nothing to do with Bill C-21, I would like to know if the government consulted you on this.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

With respect to Fred Caron and what his mandate was—because now it has been completed—it was not specific to Bill C-21. Fred Caron's mandate, from what I understand in speaking with him and from his visits to our community, was specifically around the challenges that indigenous people faced with border crossing issues.

With respect to Bill C-21 and being consulted, no. Also, I don't construe this as being consultation for that bill.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You cross the border regularly to move around your community, which is located partly in Canada and partly in the United States. You mentioned that Bill C-21 would have an impact on you. Since you already have to go through a border point when you cross the border, what will change for you with Bill C-21? You are already subject to some control.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

When you come back from the United States into the two yellow portions to the centre and to the right on our map, those parts are unmanned. There is no border inspection station. Therefore, when you leave from the orange portion and go down—let me quickly illustrate this—you are processed by a U.S. inspection station there.

When you transit back around and you come to the yellow portion, there is no inspection station. Therefore, systemically, there is no way to tag that you have returned into Canada. People can remain in this portion for long periods of time and can do things such as accessing services or groceries and things like that in the United States, and can cross back into there without being processed.

Therefore, if this bill is implemented, if you choose not to come back through an inspection station, whether it's as shown here or another one, you will systemically be shown to have never come back.

My apologies for not speaking into the mike.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

It's okay.

Can you suggest any solutions? All things considered, we understand the integrity aspect of the Mohawk community very well. However, our overall approach is focused on the security of North America and the security of the Canada-US border.

Your community is important, but we must ensure global security. Can you recommend any solutions to the committee so that we can work together?

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

I don't have one specifically, but I do know that a number of pieces of legislation pertain to Akwesasne in a wide variety of areas and recognize the uniqueness of Akwesasne, one being the St. Regis Islands Act, and one being the Akwesasne Residents Remission Order, which is specific to bringing goods into Canada. As well, there is the Akwesasne bridge workers remission order. These are examples of...I wouldn't say exemptions, but legislative recognition of the uniqueness of Akwesasne.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

We fully agree on the unique character of Akwesasne. That being said, we are trying to see how we can work together to ensure the security of the Canada-US border, while maintaining the unique character of Akwesasne.

The problem is that when you leave Ontario and go to the United States, you have to give your identity when you arrive at the US border crossing, of course. However, when you return to Canada on the Quebec side, no check is carried out.

Should there be a check to ensure the transfer of information? So the community, Canadians, and Americans would all have the same information.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

We have a number of enforcement agencies in our community: specifically, the Akwesasne Mohawk police and the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe police, which are both indigenous policing agencies. One is based in Canada and one in the United States. Community safety and national safety are of utmost importance to us as well, including the safety of our nation.

We are concerned that the information sharing with respect to this bill will impact other benefits that Canadians enjoy, such as employment insurance, child tax benefits, or health insurance benefits. Those things are the concern, because members who may choose to not be processed by customs, but who still reside in Canada for their entire life or for long periods of time, will be the ones that this bill will be a detriment for.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Dubé, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, I thank you for being here. After hearing that last comment and reading your letter, that's the real issue, then, isn't it? It's the fact that one of the stated objectives is the enforcement of different government programs and, given the uniqueness of this situation, much of that exit information can be very much misconstrued given this reality that you've been explaining for the last number of minutes.

As we look beyond the problem and towards solutions, perhaps we could get your thoughts on some of the potential solutions to the problems created by this. For example, would having more formal redress systems be a good example of something to look at as a way to alleviate this? Here's what I mean by that. Let's say there's no entry information when you return to Quebec. The information might be erroneous or mistakes can be made. We see this in our constituency offices all the time. A well-intentioned public servant might tag a certain piece of exit information and not look at the whole picture of the patterns that are there in terms of your exit.

Would being able to contest that formally be one mechanism that you envisage as something to alleviate the problem you're highlighting today?

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

We have experienced a number of problems with respect to some of these services that already exist. We had to take the minister responsible for old age security to court a number of years ago. Our elders' benefits were being reviewed and a large number of them were being cut off, simply because when the people who process these applications in the public service looked at some of the real dynamics of Akwesasne, automatically a red flag flew up. This would be the same concern.

We would be prepared to enter into discussions on how we can find solutions, but I will tell you that the area in the yellow portion of our map, which is in Quebec, actually has an area code that is an Ontario area code—613—when the rest of the region has a 514 number. When people are on the outside looking in, they see an Ontario area code and a Quebec mailing address. Also, in some cases their bank statements may be from an Ontario bank, because there's no bank—there are very few services—in the Quebec portion. As well, in some cases, these people may possess ironworkers' cards or may work in the United States for periods of time and may have a health benefit because they're an ironworker.

When they look at some documentation at a high level, it gets flagged from the systemic processing of benefits in terms of “do they really reside there?”, and that would be concern. It's that this could happen in mass numbers with respect to—

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Pardon me, but in other words, it's already an issue.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

Yes.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Also, given the stated objectives—