Public Safety Committee on Nov. 9th, 2017

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Do you think this is going to slow down that usage?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Indeed, it has a better chance than the existing law does.

We're spending—

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I can't believe this.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

—$2 billion a year trying to enforce a law that doesn't work.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Your own police officers, the RCMP, are warning you not to do this. I can give you stacks of letters from former and retired members who are begging us not to do this.

How can you ignore all that advice?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

There is some advice that disagrees, Mr. Van Kesteren, but if you look at the results of the task force that investigated this issue for the better part of last year and that talked to everyone, including the medical experts and the legal experts, and those with international experience, the task force demonstrated that what's embodied in Bill C-46 and embodied in Bill C-45 is the best way forward, and it has a greater likelihood to be successful than does the law you endorsed, which has failed.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I'm going to pass my question on to Dr. Leitch.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Minister Goodale, let's be very clear. The Canadian Medical Association presented evidence that, at the least, age 21 should be observed as the age at which an individual should be able to use and possess.

Your law is very clear, and you can tell me I'm wrong, but my understanding is that individuals 12 to 21 will be allowed to possess.

Please explain to us, then, why you are stating that my physician colleagues have stated otherwise. They are on the record as saying age 21. You have placed in your bill 12 to 18. Where is the evidence being utilized for your bill?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We're not changing the age of majority with this bill. It remains at 18. Provinces have the authority, if they believe it's appropriate, to vary that age, but the federal law is not changing the age of majority.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

No, it's changing the age of possession.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

As reluctant as I am to end this round of questioning, we are going to go to Mr. Fragiskatos now for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

Mr. Motz raised fears over asylum seekers attempting to enter Canada illegally. The University of Calgary, which, to my knowledge, is not a friend of the Liberal party, has put together information based on analysis of IRCC data which I think puts things into context.

In 2017 it's expected that Canada will have 36,000 individuals trying to enter Canada illegally at our borders. In 2008, however, that number was 37,000. In the year 2000, that number was 38,000. In the year 2001, that number was 45,000.

What that says to me is that we have dealt with these challenges before, and I believe we're in a position to deal with these challenges again, but I want you to comment on that, sir.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

That's some very useful context and history. I don't have the chart in front of me, but in fact those numbers are broadly correct.

We have dealt with numbers in this order of magnitude in the past, and our agencies—whether CBSA, the RCMP, or IRCC—have taken the steps that are necessary to put the resources in place to deal with the flow. It ebbs and flows. There have been some years as low as a couple of thousand and some years as high as 40,000. This year, it's obviously at the high end of that spectrum. We'll see what number we finally arrive at when we get to December 31.

Our officials working at the border have done extraordinary work this year and in previous years, however, to make sure that they can do two things; first, enforce effectively every Canadian law, which they have done; and second, make sure that we respect Canada's international obligations at the border with respect to asylum seekers and potential refugees.

The UN High Commissioner for Refugees was just in town earlier this week and was very positive about the manner in which Canada has shown real international leadership in dealing with a very difficult problem.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

In my riding of London North Centre, we have the Ontario headquarters of the RCMP.

You mentioned at the outset that between 2011 and 2015 the RCMP suffered deep cuts. Can you go into the nature of the cuts and explain how the money your department is requesting will be put to use to overcome the impact of the cuts?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Well, it's a serious problem of financial erosion over time, and there are also escalating demands upon the RCMP.

This is a unique and really extraordinary police force, unique in all the world because of all of the various things it's called upon to do. It's the federal police force. It provides national policing services to other police forces. In some parts of the country, it is the provincial police force. It's also, in some places, the local municipal police force. It has international obligations for national security. It's our entree into Interpol and so forth. No other policing organization in the world has that breadth of responsibility, and we manage to pile on more and more expectations all the time.

The funding is aimed at addressing the erosion right across the system. As I mentioned, one of the things we're doing is accelerating recruitment and bringing new officers into the force, partly because there has been the natural baby boomer attrition, and those people who are reaching that age leave the force. We need to make sure that our compensation is as competitive as it can be to make the force an attractive place. Part of it is going toward paying for the salary improvements that we announced earlier in the year. It's aimed at every dimension of the force, to make sure it's properly resourced. My own view is that this is the first installment. There needs to be more to come.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

I see that it's 9:45, and the minister does need to leave, so I'm going to suspend.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for your appearance here today, Minister Goodale.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We now have the officials. We are under some time constraints, and I'd like to call for the vote at the end of the meeting. My intention is to end questioning at 10:40. We had a pretty free-ranging discussion earlier for the first hour.

Colleagues, humour the chair and try to tie your questions to the supplementary estimates. What a novel idea that would be. I just also caution that there are some constraints on officials with respect to public policy.

So, with that, we'll start a new round of questioning.

Madam Dabrusin, you have seven minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to tie my questions directly to the supplementary estimates (B), because I was reading through them, and I found many items that were very interesting, particularly because we are now looking at indigenous incarceration rates. There are many issues within these supplementary (B)s touching upon indigenous communities as a whole, not just the incarceration piece.

I'll start with the first nations policing program. I see that there is additional funding in here for the first nations policing program. Maybe you can give me an idea of where we are with first nations policing. What are our successes? What are the challenges going forward, and what are we doing to address them?

[Malcolm Brown, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

I'll start and then perhaps share some of the response with Gilles. The government has undertaken a consultation process with indigenous communities across the country. The budget announced additional funding for first nations policing. The minister has continued, I would say, to meet with and engage with, and the departments continue to engage with communities.

There is a lot of interest in a variety of issues, including the level of compensation, capacity building and training, and—I'll be very frank—many communities would like to see an expansion of services as well. That's all frankly....

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

An expansion—

[Malcolm Brown]

I mean an expansion of services either in communities where the services are already provided or in communities where the first nation policing program is not yet present. The government continues to consider how to respond to those needs, but I think they are quite well documented, and there is an important first tranche of it, I would say, in the 2017 budget, and as a consequence, there are other elements, as you mentioned, in the supplementaries.

Gilles, do you want to add anything?

[D/Commr Gilles Michaud, Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Maybe I'll just add that the RCMP continues to be engaged with the communities in all communities that we serve. We're also fully engaged with the review of missing and murdered indigenous women that's ongoing right now, to ensure that we have that tight bond with the community, and we continue to support them.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

When you talk about expansion of services, are there new first nations policing programs being established as part of these?