Evidence of meeting #85 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was issues.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
I would like to talk about the work that I do. I have a presentation here, but I'll go through it quickly.
My name is Lois Frank. I'm from the Blood Tribe in southern Alberta. I'm a person who has been working with justice. I also teach at the University of Lethbridge. At the college, my area is criminal justice. I teach classes on aboriginal people in the justice system. I also served on the policy commission. I was their chair, and I created programs such as peacemaking.
The work that I've been doing lately has been in the area of Gladue writing. Over the years, I've interviewed a lot of people who are in the system, who are incarcerated or facing sentencing, and I've learned a lot. These people have given me a real education, and I've come to see a lot of things that maybe need to be improved upon or changed in the system.
I'll just go through this, and then you may have questions.
I've seen the hopelessness of some of these people, but I also see their hope. A lot of the people who are in the system have faced a lot of trauma due to childhood abuse, foster care, parental neglect, and things like that, which has made a transition into the jails because of the institutionalization. Many of these are young offenders who were the product of the residential school era through their parents and their grandparents, as mandated under the Indian Act.
Many times, by the time I see them, a lot of them have already been sentenced. They're found guilty or they plead guilty. A lot of the people in the system are subjected to a lot of the abuses in the system, and they don't know their rights. This is where I come in, and I write the reports. I get an opportunity to hear their stories, to listen to their backgrounds, and to give some recommendations to judges on what needs to happen with some of these people.
It's like a cookie cutter. A lot of them have parents who went to residential schools. They were in foster care. They've gone through a lot of abuses, but still there's hope. I see a lot of hope in a lot of these individuals.
Once they're incarcerated, though, nothing happens. They're left in systems where they're forced to choose between belonging by being part of a gang, fitting in. That is their family once they go into these institutions, whether federal or provincial, but in the provincial institutions they are remanded. A lot of times they have no access to programs. Many of them are in solitary confinement for whatever reasons, spending 23 hours a day in solitary. I see women, men, the youth.
I had this all prepared, but because of the time limit.... I really believe that we need to look at this whole system. As a Gladue writer, I'm restricted. I'm not here representing the Alberta justice department, although I do reports for them. I'm an educator, a mother, a grandmother, and I have come to see things in a totally different light.
I've taught Native American studies, justice, and many different disciplines. One of the things that I've found in doing a lot of the research is that native people across the Americas had their own justice. They had their own philosophies. They had their own justice systems. Justice was swift, and it was based on a spiritual model. Your actions had consequences. Some would say it was something like karma. They believed that what you did came back to you.
Justice was internalized. They didn't have jails. They banished people who committed violations; they didn't call them crimes. They were deviations that needed healing in communities, but it was very swift, and it was done by the elders.
The grandmothers were really important. They were the ones who kept things in line. I've made recommendations to some of my clients that they be monitored by their grandmothers. Some of them are under house arrest with their grandmothers, and that's a real sentence for some of them, because they're scared of their grandmothers.
I think we need to return to some of those concepts, because once they get in jail, there's no rehabilitation in many cases. In tribal societies, if you look at the history, you see there were no jails. In Native American studies, I've researched tribes across the Americas, and there were no jails. People would be banished. They would be shamed. There were ways to deal with people who committed these deviations. Mostly there were ceremonies that people had to endure to deal with their actions.
Women were really respected. I'm surprised in doing the work that I've done that there isn't a real emphasis on bringing back the grandmothers, the women, into healing some of these problems. I speak from experience, because I am a mom. I'm a grandmother, and most recently I've become a great-grandmother. I have kids coming in and out of my house, and some live there for a while. I don't need to say more. I set the rules. I give them direction. I do it with love and compassion, but when they see that look, and they've done something wrong, they know that they need to listen to their parents and their grandparents.
There has been so much trauma in some of our communities because of the policies and the Indian Act requiring all people of that generation to attend residential school. Sometimes seven generations of people were colonized. They were put into the schools. It's the children and the people in the community who are paying for it now. A lot of these young people didn't go to residential schools, but maybe they have parents who have lost parental skills or who are maybe not intact. However, we still have the connection with the elders, the grandparents, and I think that's something we need to look at.
I'm humbled by the experiences of a lot of these people who have endured neglect, physical and sexual abuse, substance abuse, and I see the anger building in a lot of these people. Without doing anything about it, I think we're going to see these problems increase. It's not up to the justice system to fix the problems, but I think there are ways in which we can do things, such as bringing in some programming. A lot of my clients who request counselling or spiritual advice or anything like that are maybe given a pamphlet.
One of the abuses concerns people who have legal aid lawyers. I'm not criticizing lawyers, but a lot of times they plead them out, and there are not adjudicated facts. Under the Criminal Code, the sentence has to match the crime, and in a lot of cases that isn't happening.
With the Gladue reports, sometimes I get on the nerves of some of these lawyers because I present the client's version. Many times it has not been investigated, and they're pleading out because they're afraid. They don't know their rights. I feel fortunate to be able to advocate for some of these people, and to instruct judges as well. I've been called upon many times by judges. Gladue reports are supposed to be impersonal and unbiased, and I try to follow that, but I also will go to court with some of these people, and judges have asked me to speak in many cases.
I see the limitations of the Gladue system, the Gladue report writing, and people can do something. I would like to see some changes there. I have recommendations here.
A lot of them are sentenced. They go to prison. Prisons are places of hope and places where there can be a lot of rehabilitation, but bringing the traditions back is really important. I don't mean just a sweat lodge or a pipe ceremony; bringing the wisdom of some of the grandmothers and some of the people back into the community is really important.
I have all of these recommendations.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Ms. Frank. I appreciate your efforts to stay within our time constraints.
As there's been no opportunity to brief, Mr. Fragiskatos is going to ask questions of the panel for the next seven minutes, and then Mr. MacKenzie, Mr. Dubé, and Mr. Spengemann. That will be the order of questioning.
Go ahead, Mr. Fragiskatos, for seven minutes.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here today, all of you, and thank you for the work you're doing.
I have a question, first of all, about indigenous peoples' courts, if I could put that question to you, Ms. Frank.
You spoke about your experience researching indigenous history and the approach that was taken to transgressions when it came to violations of the community.
I wonder if you could speak to the issue of indigenous peoples' courts and whether or not that aligns, at least in principle, with some of the history that exists in terms of indigenous culture. To what extent do you think that indigenous peoples' courts are very important, from a reconciliation perspective, when we're trying to address problems of criminal justice and how it affects indigenous peoples specifically?
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
Because there were so many different tribes in the Americas, there were different ways in which people did things. To institutionalize another problem, there's a danger in that.
I believe the charter protects the tribes. People respect the justice system. I think things like Gladue courts could work, but there are only a few in this country, from what I understand. I think it would be a unique way to look at that.
However, it's not just the courts; it's sentencing, it's prisons. Prisons are where a lot of them end up, but courts could be aligned with the correctional facilities.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
I believe the first one was established in Toronto in 2001. I know that Ottawa recently had one established as well.
I think it's a very interesting approach to these issues, specifically when we think about applying a reconciliation lens to these matters.
Chief Executive Officer, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
May I address that question as well?
Chief Executive Officer, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
An agency has been doing court work since the beginning of time in Canada. I think it's really important to address that, because it's the responsibility of all courts to act equally in the administration of justice.
We don't believe that the separation of a court should exist. There may be special circumstances in larger centres where Gladue courts occur because of the large aboriginal population, such as a mental health or a family violence court, but across the board it is the responsibility of all judges to administer the law according to the law, and I think it's important that they as well should be equally educated on the issues of aboriginal justice.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
Ms. Frank, can you tell me about what goes into the writing of a Gladue report, the sensitivity and the skill set that are required? Do you have help in the making of a Gladue report?
I ask because there was a piece written just recently, I believe it was in the CBC, talking about this very issue and the difficulty in finding people with the skill set to write Gladue reports. There is an Ottawa-based law firm specializing in indigenous issues that is now going to partner with the Vancouver Community College, as I understand it, to come up with a curriculum to teach what is needed to write a Gladue report.
Tell us about that.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
Well, with Gladue reports, we've been given a guideline. Normally we look at the community history and at the individual's history and background. We look at things like mental health and physical health and all of that, and their community of origin, and residential schools. A lot of the people I interview are younger. They haven't gone to residential schools, but their parents went, generally. There's sort of a checklist for whether they've been in foster care, whether they have substance abuse issues, whether they've been abused, and things like that. There is a long checklist, and normally I'll go through that.
However, there isn't a checklist, which is one of the things I have observed about these reports, for the justice system. For instance, did the police do a proper investigation? Did the person get a fair trial? The onus is on the individual and the Gladue writers.
We're told that we don't give recommendations to judges, only a background on the person, but that doesn't make sense to me. I think the judges need to be able to hear some of the recommendations, but maybe that's just the way that Gladue reports are set out.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
Ms. Carefoot, you touched on this in your remarks. I wonder if you could speak about Wellness House's work, specifically with indigenous women, and the award that the organization won for the work. Could you go into successes in terms of how you measure success? Is it lower recidivism rates? What exactly is being carried out to produce the good results, and what do you mean by “good results”?
Director, Corrections Program, Buffalo Sage Wellness House, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
First of all, we agree with Ms. Frank. We have an elder who lives at the women's facility, and we have an elder at the men's facility as well. The woman who lives at the women's facility comes in on Monday and stays for three days and three nights, so she is there in the evenings as well. Trust me: I'd much rather talk to a judge or a lawyer than to our elder Vicky, because she is really tough. She is an awesome lady, and she holds the women to a very high set of standards.
We have many successes. We have some...I'm not going to say failures, but sometimes it takes more than one or two tries to have our successes. We consider it a success when a woman gets her children back. We have a mother-child program there. When the women are well enough, they can bring their children in and look after them there. Many of them don't have parenting skills because of the historical trauma. They never had parents who had the skills to look after them.
I am being told to slow down here. I am very passionate about this work, as you can tell. I do tend to get carried away.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
You'll have to work your passion into the responses to Mr. MacKenzie's questions.
Director, Corrections Program, Buffalo Sage Wellness House, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
I will.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you very much for being here.
Our study is very interesting, because we are looking at aboriginals in prison, yet many of us think that we have already failed when the community ends up in the prison system. If we can break that cycle, we are already ahead.
One thing we've heard is that the people within the prisons and within the system always self-identify as to what their background is. I think that presents some issues with respect to how we deal with people. One of the concerns I have is how to identify percentages, if there is such a thing, from reserves and from urban areas. Obviously there is a difference in dealing with elders when you are in an urban area and when you are on a reserve, where the elders are close and the grandmothers.... I've dealt with the grandmothers, and they are the hardest, if you will. They are harsh in their views of what is right and wrong, and they take care of it in their way.
How would you define the differences between reserve inmates and inmates from urban settings?
Chief Executive Officer, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
It's difficult to separate, because of the transient population. In a centre like Edmonton, we have a lot of movement from isolated northern communities in and out of the city. We do have a large urban population that's born, raised, and situated in Edmonton. In those situations, it's difficult to separate those who have traditional knowledge from those who don't, largely because there is an expansion of services around traditional knowledge for urban aboriginal people. We've opened the first culturally sensitive area and ceremonial grounds in the area, with the City of Edmonton, for that purpose.
It's often difficult to separate them. Our agency is challenged with a clientele of over 100,000 people in the city of Edmonton alone, in a number of different service areas. In those areas, about 60% of those people access cultural services.
Director, Corrections Program, Buffalo Sage Wellness House, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
Many of the women and men—the women in particular—have never known their culture until they come to prison. It's really interesting to be able to help them learn and to see the lights go on when they say, during our warrior program, “Oh, my gosh. That's why I behave the way I do.” We do introduce a lot of the culture to these people. We also have our own sweat lodges.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
I think it's more difficult for places like.... I live on a reserve, so I have first-hand knowledge of what's happening in the communities. A lot of these young people don't learn their culture in prison, because many times they don't have access to programs. The only one they have is beadwork, and I disagree with that, because there needs to be programming for life skills and for getting them help in aftercare or getting them involved in planning their own job skills and things like that.
I have a lot of clients, and I know we'd like to believe that prisons are rehabilitating people, but they are not. A lot of these young people are joining gangs for protection. They sometimes see the prison as a home, because they've been in foster care. The last guy I saw, on Wednesday, has been in 15 foster homes. Also, the drug problem is becoming very significant.
We can't just look to the elders. There's a problem I have with that, because I think that sometimes our elders are also products of the residential school system. They were mandated to attend. If we're going to use elders, we have to train them too. My area is curriculum development. I train elders to do peacemaking. I had to school them on the Criminal Code and all of these things.
It's such an easy thing for judges to say, “Send them to a treatment centre.” Well, it's temporary. Sending them to an elder or sending them to a sweat lodge is not going to do it. They have to learn their culture and identity all over again. I think those things can be done by native people who are professionals and are in touch with their knowledge base about traditions, but to just send them to a sweat lodge as a quick fix—
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
How do we do that before they get to the prison system, so that we break the chain of people going to prison? You're saying that once they're in prison, we introduce them to their culture. What's the way for us to introduce people to their culture before they get to the prison system?
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
I don't know who you're addressing.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
I believe you can. It's something you grow up with. That's the advantage that people on reserve have—they're connected to the traditions—but it's a source of trauma as well. I think that to separate urban and reserve Indians...they have the same problems. As was mentioned, sometimes they're transient. They move back and forth between the city and the reserve. One of my clients on Thursday—I saw three this week—says, “The reserve is my jail; I feel feel safer in here.” Still, it's not doing what it could be doing.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you.
There's one last question I have. If you're banished by the grandmothers, how do you get back?