Evidence of meeting #85 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was issues.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:20 a.m.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
Grandmothers don't banish; it was tribal societies like the Brave Dogs. We had societies who were protectors or police—
10:20 a.m.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
It was through restitution. There were ceremonies where people would be reintegrated back into the community.
10:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.
I want to look at how the choice is made between medium- and maximum-security institutions. It's come up a few times. I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on that in terms of the difference it can make and how the assessment is made by CSC and whether that is appropriate or not.
10:25 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
The risk assessment tool has been a question for a lot of years. The late Dr. Joe Couture, who was a psychologist, a former brother with the Catholic Church, and an aboriginal elder, and who worked in corrections for a lot of years, argued that we missed the boat when it came to addressing the risk assessment tool that's used.
It's constantly being defended. The risk assessment tool has never properly addressed the needs of an indigenous offender. Because of that, the risk factors are addressed and used to determine the level of incarceration—so medium, maximum, or minimum—and that's why we see an overrepresentation of offenders in maximum security. It's rare that you see someone moving from maximum to medium quickly, and certainly not from medium to minimum. That's one of the challenging issues we have.
The other part that fits with that is the programming. The philosophy around accessing programs at a maximum level is really unrealistic. Maximum should be for those offenders who are at risk to other offenders and who represent a high risk to society. Medium is where we should be pointing most of our offenders for treatment and rehabilitation. From that we can then provide the right tools for assessment into minimum security and then release into the community.
We're spending too much energy and effort on maximum security. We see the result when we have so many statutory release offenders, and now statutory release with residency, which is a challenge for our whole society. We should be seriously concerned about that.
If I could address that statutory release issue, the national Parole Board uses statutory release with residency. Sometimes the offender isn't notified until just days before they're released that they have a residency clause, so when they're released they're very angry and they're very unhappy. They go into a halfway house or a healing lodge and usually will commit UAL—be unlawfully at large—within a day or two, because they don't feel they have an obligation to serve more time and they think that they've served their time.
That whole issue of statutory release is more a risk to society than it is a safety issue.
10:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you.
Does anyone else want to comment?
The other piece I want to look at is young people, which you talked a little bit about. That's something that's come up at the federal level. Let's say it is 18 to 35. I'm just throwing a number out there. I'm not sure what the official piece is.
Some great points have been made about where they feel at home and some of the long-term consequences of mental health and addiction issues and things like that. When we had CSC here, they confirmed that there are no specific programs tailored to that age bracket. Considering the large aboriginal youth population and the way it's growing compared to the rest of the population, is that something that should be a priority?
10:25 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
The youth in corrections issue is a real challenge, and yes, it should be a priority. Correction Service of Canada did an evaluation a number of years ago on the “in search of your warrior” program that addressed healing, and 87% of those offenders have not reoffended violently. That's a high success rate. That program was used for young offenders and for the younger population, and yet that program is no longer supported or delivered in correctional centres.
We train people across Canada to deliver that program. I think it's important that they revisit the kind of healing programs or rehabilitation programs that address the younger, more violent population.
10:25 a.m.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
I deal with a lot of these young offenders. They're not serial killers. They're demonized when they're in the system, but a lot of them are in there for breaches. They couldn't pay a fine or they couldn't get to court, or things like that, so they're recirculated in the system.
I think programs like the one he mentioned, as well as mentorship and things like that, would be very useful. Sometimes just listening to them and letting them figure out what they want to do and offering that kind of support is really important. These are one-year programs, and the funding runs out.
10:30 a.m.
Director, Corrections Program, Buffalo Sage Wellness House, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
We have a 19-year-old at Buffalo Sage right now. Two weeks ago, the Regina city police wanted to come to talk to her. We agreed that they could talk to her. They went into a room and they wanted to question her about her behaviour in the community. When they left, the police officer said to our head of security, “I've never seen such a change in a young woman. We won't be back to see her.”
10:30 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you for that.
To perhaps square that circle, CSC mentioned that part of the flawed risk assessment process involves things like gang affiliations or potential gang affiliations and things like that. It's far from scientific; it's more anecdotal than anything else. Hearing some of these factors that are used, the sense I get—and to conclude, I would like to hear from you on this—is that these things will inevitably profile young offenders differently in terms of the different risks they may pose, and then end up shoving them up to a maximum security facility, and then that can cause problems in programming and things like that.
Would that be a fair assessment, based on your experiences?
10:30 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
It is a fair assessment.
When you move a young offender, especially a newer one, into maximum security, where they're victimized and where they're going to be forced into more gang and criminal activity, is more a harm to society than it is a safety measure.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
You have 15 seconds, but thank you for that extra time. I'm sure Mr. Spengemann will appreciate it.
You have seven minutes. Go ahead, please.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Mr. Chair, thank you very much.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here.
Mr. Chair, we've heard compelling testimony so far. I think part of what we've heard is that we have to be very mindful to not inadvertently perpetuate or even recreate elements of the residential school system through our correction system. We've also heard in very compelling terms this morning from your predecessor witnesses that this is a much broader issue than corrections itself. We're talking about criminal justice here. These issues are issues of social justice.
I'd like to start out by asking you to venture outside the box. I'm very mindful that this committee has its parameters and other committees on Parliament Hill have their parameters and that they're masters of their own destiny. If issues are horizontal and cross-connected in such a profound way, maybe we can create some inspiration or ideas, and it will then be up to us as parliamentarians to connect the dots.
I'd like to ask each of you if you could identify as precisely as possible, maybe as a theme of inquiry or maybe in whatever terms you see fit, the top one or two system-external drivers that have indigenous offenders end up in your system in the first place. In other words, if you're saying the correctional system isn't working as well as it should and that out there in Canadian society we are still perpetuating a mindset that leads to such a huge concentration of indigenous offenders, what do we need to change outside of the parameters of the correctional system to achieve reconciliation in a nation-to-nation sense?
10:30 a.m.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
Perhaps I could answer that, because I teach criminal justice.
I think there's a disconnect between police, the courts, and corrections. It needs to be more coordinated.
Kids are being carded when they're walking down the streets. One of the things I keep hearing is that the police are identifying these people and searching them out whenever there's a crime. There's racism that exists with policing. Most of the judges I've dealt with are very fair-minded and generous to the people, but when they get to the jails, some of them are fighting, because there's racism in the correctional system too. Some of them are fighting, and they end up in solitary. I've had a lot of people in solitary, and that really needs to be examined. I think that coordination would be useful.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thanks for that.
Are there any other external drivers?
10:30 a.m.
Director, Corrections Program, Buffalo Sage Wellness House, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
I have one woman at Buffalo Sage who was in 58 foster homes. She was pregnant at 14 from the last foster father she stayed with. The foster care system has to be looked at.
10:30 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Native Counselling Services of Alberta
Foster care, education, and youth justice are the three areas that have the biggest impact on our communities.
We've seen a number of reviews of the education system. In Alberta a lot of effort is being put into a new relationship between indigenous education and mainstream education.
In child welfare, we have a child intervention panel. One of your community members sits at that panel, along with my wife and other experts, and that panel is addressing child intervention.
The whole area of youth justice fits into all of this. In child welfare courts and youth justice courts, I don't believe our judges are receiving the right kind of direction and support from the courts. Our youth justice system focused on rehabilitation and has now become punitive.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
That's very helpful. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chair, we heard testimony before the committee from the correctional investigator recently. In fact, there's a report out. We had a discussion on gender aspects. The report itself doesn't make any recommendations that are gender-specific.
In your testimony this morning, you touched on gender aspects. What specifically needs to change, relating to women and girls, other than just increases in facilities and bed spaces? In some respects those are obvious, but if we drill down a bit more deeply, looking at the extremely disproportionate representation of indigenous girls and women in the correctional system, what changes would you recommend?
10:35 a.m.
Gladue Writer, Alberta Justice, As an Individual
Could I address that?
With this murdered and missing women issue and the inquiries, they talk about the experiences of first nations people and how women are really at risk. That's why I believe grandmothers would be useful in helping.
These education programs would be useful, but a lot of my clients have dropped out of school. Maybe the institutions that exist now for them could be places where they could learn these things. I think some of the dollars that have gone to this truth and reconciliation initiative could go to programs like that for women.
