Public Safety Committee on Nov. 30th, 2017

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

In a situation where a dataset comes from a widely cast net, how do you go about telling relevant information from the rest?

You set it aside, and that is fine; the intention is good. But how do you go about deciding which information, which data, will be set aside?

[David Vigneault]

Here is what we do.

We do not start our investigations from selected data. We start them from factors that are related to threats.

If an identified target is implicated in potential terrorism or espionage, and if we see that that person is in contact with someone—certain information can be useful to us, like a telephone number—we can then check in the unselected data we have been authorized to keep. That is part of the process I explained to you earlier.

What people are afraid of is that we will be going on fishing expeditions.

There's no fishing expedition.

We cannot start conducting investigations based on unselected data. It is quite the opposite. We start with the data from our investigations and we then use the unselected data to ensure that the individuals we are investigating are actually associated with the threat. That information will often help us to establish that they are not associated with the threat.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Vigneault, I'm sorry to cut off this fishing expedition question.

Ms. Damoff, you have seven minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for being with us for our second hour.

I want to go back to the no-fly list or passenger protect program. I too have met with the no-fly list kids. I have a young man in my riding, and I've been working with his mom almost since I got elected on the fact that his name is shared on the list.

I want to go through a little that's in the bill and some that isn't.

You mentioned the U.S. has a redress system, and that's what we're moving toward. My understanding is that it's more difficult and more costly for us to create one today than it would have been if it had just been done at the beginning or even several years ago. Because of the fact that this list has been out there for so long, to create it now is more difficult and more costly than it would have been if we had done it the way the U.S. had done it and done it much earlier. Is that correct?

[Vincent Rigby]

I think in retrospect we certainly would have liked to have had the redress system in place at the outset. To create the fix now is certainly more challenging, without a doubt. I can't speak with authority that it is going to be more expensive, but I suspect that might well be the case. I'd have to confirm that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's fine.

When I read the legislation this is still not 100% clear to me, so if you could clear it up.... Who creates and who maintains the list? Is it the airlines or the government?

[Vincent Rigby]

This is where I am going to turn to Monik, because she is very essential to the whole process, but I will say one thing. The screening has been done by the airlines up to this point, so the screening will now move back to the government. We will do the screening, not the airlines, and there are a number of advantages to that.

I'll let Monik, who is in the trenches on this, go through the process for you.

[Monik Beauregard]

The government creates the Secure Air Travel Act list based on a dual threshold of identifying individuals who are suspected of posing a threat to airlines but also individuals who are suspected of travelling abroad to participate in terrorist activities. That is not to say that airlines don't have their own lists, but they're not terrorism-related. Airlines will have their own list based on people who've had rage fits on airlines and things like that.

There's quite a complex process in place when somebody is flagged at registration. They may be on the SATA list. There's a whole process going back to the government, to Transport Canada, and to Public Safety to vet whether or not that person is a close name match or an actual person on the list.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you for that.

The legislation will change two things. One is that parents or guardians can now contact the government to find out if their child is a match on the list. Is that correct?

[Monik Beauregard]

Exactly, yes.

[Vincent Rigby]

That is correct.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The other change has to do with people who have applied to have their names removed from the list. Can you go through the change that we made for that?

[Monik Beauregard]

That is the recourse process. When the Liberal government came to power that was a mandate: to make changes to the recourse process. Essentially there was a deemed decision previously that if after 90 days the minister had not rendered a decision, the individual would remain on the list. We have now reversed the process. If the minister has not provided a response within 120 days, then the person is automatically removed from the list. The recourse process has now been made fairer.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That was a change that this committee recommended as well, when we did our study on the national security framework.

[Monik Beauregard]

Exactly.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

We maintain a Canadian list. Other countries maintain their own lists. Is that correct?

[Monik Beauregard]

That's correct.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

We're not using a U.S. list then, in Canada? That's a question that I'm often asked.

[Monik Beauregard]

No. Again, as I explained, we have our own list. The list that is shared with airlines is the Canadian list, as Vincent indicated.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

There seems to be confusion, certainly among the parents, that there is this list somewhere that every country has access to.

In terms of a short-term fix, I just want to get this on the record because my colleague, Mr. Spengemann, brought it up. As crazy as it sounds, I've been told that if people apply for a loyalty number from an airline, it actually acts in a similar way to a redress number to allow them to fly more easily with the airlines. That is what my constituent was told and I actually went back to Public Safety because I thought it was crazy, but it was explained to me that it provides a unique identifier. Can you just confirm that it actually does assist the passengers who are flying?

[Monik Beauregard]

Yes, it does. Some of the unique identifiers are based on date of birth, the sex of the individual, etc. By using an Aeroplan number, for example, there is an automatic deconfliction in the system confirming certain identifiers. Using an Aeroplan number or a WestJet number would actually help those who have close name matches.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

With this legislation, this will now allow you to put the regulations you mentioned in place. The steps would be the legislation, the regulations, and then funding in order to be able to put it in place. Will this allow you to start to put some of the other pieces in place?

[Vincent Rigby]

It certainly starts us down that track, but funding will be critical.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Before I turn it over to Ms. Gallant, most of the witnesses here are frequent flyers, shall we say, while some are not. For those who wish to reflect on whatever it is they said or may have read in Hansard that requires clarification, you're more than welcome to write to the clerk for any clarification you wish.

Ms. Gallant, you have five minutes, please.