Evidence of meeting #92 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-59.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
As you mentioned, the list was put in place in 2007. One of the challenges was the way the previous government set it up. Instead of going the course that the Americans did, ours was done differently. As a result, officials, when they were here last week, said that it's going to be difficult and likely more costly to try to switch over now. Having said that, I think that in Bill C-59 we have the framework in place to start putting all of this in place.
I'm going to switch over to our other witnesses, though, because you think we should just get rid of it altogether. Is that what you were testifying? You don't think a redress system is something that we should pursue.
Legal Adviser, National Council of Canadian Muslims
We think the redress system is definitely something you should pursue for the reasons you've heard from No Fly List Kids, but we're urging evidence-based policy-making. So far, the only evidence we've seen is evidence of harm. There is no real evidence that the no-fly list works.
In 2001 or 2002, there were different considerations at play. Experiments, attempts at increasing airline security in particular, were necessary. There's no reason to continue to take those assumptions as true in the face of experience and in the face of other options.
We haven't done the research. We're not here with answers. We're simply saying that, in looking at the evidence, we don't see how the benefit outweighs the harm.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
There are two concerns. One is that people whose names are on the list are there because there's a concern about security. What we're hearing about from No Fly List Kids is that there is not a concern with their security. They are not on the list. It's their names that are a match with the list, correct?
Legal Adviser, National Council of Canadian Muslims
There's the problem of false positives or mistaken identity, and then there's the problem of erroneous listing. You're hearing that it's difficult to know if you're even on the list. Figuring out whether your name sounds like someone else's, whether you have the same name as someone else who should properly be named a threat, or whether your name is just there because of some false information or a false association is virtually impossible to know without digging deeper.
Certainly, at a theoretical level, those two are different—the case of mistaken identity and the case of being wrongly named—but the result is the same.
Parent, No Fly List Kids
—one interesting thing is that if you are a listed person, one of those 2,000 people or more on the list, you have a recourse path that is legislated. It's mandated in the Secure Air Travel Act. That's what we're saying here. For the many thousands more who are false positives, who have nothing to do with this list, that process is not legislated. Even with the amendments of Bill C-59, it's not guaranteed that a redress system would be implemented.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Right, but you wouldn't legislate the funding into a bill.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
What the minister has said, though, is that Bill C-59 gives us the legislative framework to build the regulations, and then the funding is required. This is the first step in making sure that this happens.
I have only five seconds left, so thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We'll have to leave it there.
Monsieur Paul-Hus, you have seven minutes, please.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for being here.
Mr. Gardee, at the beginning of your testimony, you took some time to level some quite serious charges against CSIS and CSE. You say that your organization, the National Council of Canadian Muslims, does not trust our intelligence services.
Could you be specific about what could shed some light on that subject? Personally, I trust our services. Could you be more specific?
Executive Director, National Council of Canadian Muslims
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just to clarify, we were discussing CSIS, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, not the Communications Security Establishment, although our concerns are shared across different security agencies regarding their operation.
We have seen through a number of different public inquiries high-profile cases of innocent individuals who have been implicated in national security investigations that have in certain cases led to individuals being rendered to torture overseas or picked up, when information is shared with foreign intelligence agencies, and held for extended periods of time. In some cases, they are subjected to torture and mistreatment, as has been discovered through public inquiries through Justice Dennis O'Connor and Justice Frank Iacobucci, looking at the cases of Maher Arar, Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad Abou-Elmaati, Muayyed Nureddin.
We are aware, as well, of other cases of individuals who were abroad, alleging similar treatment, including Abousfian Abdelrazik who was held in Sudan for a number of years. We have other Canadians who are still detained abroad and on whose behalf we are still advocating for their return. These kinds of incidents and these kinds of high-profile cases certainly shine a light on some of our significant concerns.
As my colleague, Professor Bhabha, mentioned as well, we—
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
That answers my question, thank you. As I do not have a lot of time, I would like to continue with my questions to you.
When you testified about Bill C-51, you mentioned that members of the community want to help with deradicalization, but they are afraid of being accused of being extremists.
Do you think that Bill C-59 solves that problem?
December 12th, 2017 / 9:20 a.m.
Executive Director, National Council of Canadian Muslims
In terms of our testimony on Bill C-51, obviously there is a concern regarding the stigma that is associated with being identified as somebody who has been connected in any way to violent extremism or the ideology that supports and underpins it. There is a concern that exists there in terms of that stigma being applied to not just the individual but more broadly to the community at large when looking at national security and ensuring our shared security.
To be clear, Canadian Muslims are as concerned about violent extremism and the ideologies that underpin it, and we are equally concerned about all forms of violent extremism.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I am not sure whether you are aware, but a bill has been introduced, Bill C-371, An Act respecting the prevention of radicalization through foreign funding and making related amendments to the Income Tax Act, to deal with what is called “covert channels”. What is your opinion about that bill?
Legal Adviser, National Council of Canadian Muslims
We haven't looked at that bill. We haven't come prepared—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
I would say we are going into an area that you may or may not be prepared for, so—
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I ask the question openly, to find out whether you are aware that the bill exists. If you are not, that's fine.
It is a bill that was introduced in October to counter funding from outside the country, the so-called “covert channels”. This is money from other countries or foreign organizations. I know that the Muslim community testified on the matter previously. Some imams have told us that they oppose this kind of funding and that they support our position.
I just wanted to know whether you were aware of the existence of the bill, but there is no problem if you are not.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
If you don't feel comfortable answering the question, you can say so and submit to the committee a more formal response. In fact, that would be a way of handling this surprise question, shall we say.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Okay.
I would like to go back to the no-fly list.
I am one of the MPs who signed a letter that has been sent to the Minister asking him for action.
Bill C-59 provides for the possibility of issuing a unique identifier to people, but do you feel that using biometric data could be something to add in order to make it easier to identify people?
Parent, No Fly List Kids
I don't know specifically about biometric information, but I do agree that using additional identifiers makes a lot of sense. For example, if we mandated that the date of birth be used in addition to the name, we calculated that would reduce the number of false positives by a factor of 30,000, just based on the odds of two people having the same birthday. That simple addition to the system could reduce the number of false positives drastically, and then we could have redress for those few remaining individuals who still have trouble when they travel.
Conservative