Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was systemic.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christian Leuprecht  Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Michelaine Lahaie  Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Rick Parent  As an Individual
Peter Sloly  Chief of Police, Ottawa Police Service
Tom Stamatakis  President, Canadian Police Association
Dale McFee  Chief of Police, Edmonton Police Service

1 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you.

In practical terms, what else are you proposing to reduce systemic racism? This is mentioned in the report on equity and diversity that was tabled. From what you can see in your ranks, is the current training sufficient?

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I'm going to have to interrupt here. We're almost out of time. I saw a consensus view from all three witnesses on your last question, so maybe we can leave it there. I am really having to run the clock here and I apologize.

Mr. Harris, you have six minutes, please.

1 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Chair.

Let me first say that the reason this study is taking place is that it's recognized that there is significant systemic overrepresentation, based on race, of indigenous, black and racialized Canadians in our criminal justice system, in prisons and on the wrong end of the use of force by police, leading to serious injury or death. I think that's the reason we're here, and I hope that every police officer in Canada gets to hear what we heard from our first three witnesses in their opening statements. That puts to rest any question in my mind, and hopefully in their minds, that we're dealing with a problem that needs to be resolved.

I commend you for your recognition and for the quality of those statements. We need to find ways to put an end to what we are here for, and if we can do that, that would be great progress.

First of all, Chief Sloly, you were the deputy chief of police of Toronto prior to Mark Saunders' appointment as chief, and you had in place at that time a plan for modernization. You had developed a plan for modernization of the Toronto police force.

Could you tell us what that looked like?

1:05 p.m.

Chief of Police, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Peter Sloly

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

First of all, I want to be very clear. I was part of a team that was led by Bill Blair, now Minister of Public Safety. I was the deputy chief working for Bill. I contributed to the overall strategy that Bill was leading in that time frame. I applied for the chief's job in Toronto and Mark was successful, and I fully support his leadership within the organization and his attempt to modernize the Toronto Police Service, which touched on many of the things we've talked about here today. Some of the ideas I've shared with you here were certainly part of the action items that the Toronto Police Service has led.

Let me talk about the modernization plan here in the Ottawa Police Service, which very much reflects my lived experience as a black man in Canada and my experience as a police leader in Canada and my belief that policing does need to continue to modernize. Great strides have been made already by the leaders whose shoulders I stand on. I talked about Bill Blair, but also Adam Palmer in Vancouver and Paul Pedersen.

At the core of it, though, is culture change, taking the best of what we have—compassion, service, professionalism, dedication and bravery—but recognizing that many of the HR processes we've used to nurture talent and maintain the emotional health and psychological health of our members over the course of a long 30-year career have not been sufficient. We've seen members who have received moral wounds, some of which have gone on to PTSD, and in some tragic cases, suicide. We need to do better for our members and their health.

We have seen systemic and decade-over-decade inability to significantly suppress crime in communities, as well as to build resilience in communities where they can look after their own needs without depending on any institution, never mind the policing institution. The definition of “insanity” is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting new results but getting the same old results.

We've done some great things. We've built a social fabric and a safety foundation in this country, but it's not enough. A lot has changed and we need to do more. That, I think, is the commitment you've heard from Tom, Dale and me, and it reflects the vast majority of Canadian leaders and Canadian police officers. We're willing to do it with different partners, with health care, education and social services, but we need to come out of this emotional whirlwind and get into a place where we can plan, implement and evaluate those things properly.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Chief, I'm not trying to be cynical here, but some of the things you've mentioned, such as neighbourhood policing, intelligent policing, have resulted in some communities in complaints of racial profiling, carding and collecting information leading to overpolicing of the very groups we're talking about. How is what you're talking about now different?

For example, one of the solutions, I suppose, proposed yesterday by Professor Owusu-Bempah talked about how police are rewarded for making the number of arrests and the results as opposed to perhaps a safe result. Is that something that is being changed? Is that part of the culture change?

How do we go from this point where overpolicing actually happens because of this culture to the point where we don't have this?

1:05 p.m.

Chief of Police, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Peter Sloly

Again, I want to very quickly reference that my comments around neighbourhood policing were clear. Prevention should be the first thing we do. Off-ramping people out of the justice system, not on-ramping them into the justice system, is the first thing our neighbourhood officers should do. Each one of the speakers talked about it in a very different way, but in the same way.

If you send officers into any place and tell them that their most important tool is law enforcement and if you require of them to do law enforcement in order to get promotions or transfers, they will do those things. That's where the systemic issue comes in. Our officers themselves, through our own systems that we have designed and put them in, have been put in a bad place and communities in a bad place. We need to better task our officers and provide opportunities for different outcomes than just law enforcement outcomes.

We actually need to stop calling our officers “law enforcers”. They are servers, they are protectors, but they shouldn't be referred to as law enforcers. They should be working in service with other agencies to prevent crimes, and if crimes do happen, to try to off-ramp those people from the criminal justice system as much as possible to reduce the demand in the system.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Harris, we're going to have to leave it there.

Colleagues, I have a hard stop at 1:20 p.m. because the requirements are that the room be emptied for COVID purposes, scrubbed and all the rest of the stuff, so I'm going to be a bit arbitrary and cut three minutes down to two. I'm unfortunately going to have to cut off both Madame Michaud and Mr. Harris for their last two questions.

It will be Mr. Morrison for two minutes, Mr. Anandasangaree for two minutes, Mr. Vidal for two minutes and Madame Damoff for two minutes. I apologize for being arbitrary, but we have COVID protocols that have to be adhered to.

With that, Mr. Morrison, you have two minutes.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both of the chiefs and Tom Stamatakis for coming today.

My question will be for you, Tom, but first of all, I want to thank you for representing the front-line police officers. I know that many times they feel alone out there, with very little support, especially in our remote communities.

My question, Tom, is in relation to our public mental health and how our police officers, especially in remote communities, have to do so many tasks. I know you gave a media release to Global News. Municipal is a bit different from rural. I wonder if you could quickly give us some insight into what you feel we should be doing there.

1:10 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Association

Tom Stamatakis

Thank you.

I think Chief Sloly said it very well. We put police officers, men and women, in these untenable situations, where we ask them to do too much. It's particularly a challenge in our more rural and remote parts of the country where there is no access to service and support.

Back to one of the questions in terms of overpolicing, particularly in our indigenous communities or our more vulnerable, marginalized communities, it is about creating that capacity, which has been touched on by both Chief Sloly and Chief McFee, around those other services, those partnerships. When you put a police officer in a remote or rural community on their own, with no access to those other services, it only creates the kind of situation that Chief Sloly touched on in terms of moral injury and frustration around the inability to actually help people, which then leads to the damage that Chief Sloly so very eloquently described. We need to do more. We need to build that capacity. We need to look beyond just policing, to do the things that have been discussed this afternoon by all the panellists. If we don't do these things, nothing will change.

I've been part of so many reviews, coroners' inquests and commissions of inquiry. We need to change what we're doing if we want to address these issues, including the mental health and wellness of the men and women we ask to do this challenging work in often very difficult circumstances.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I'm going to have to leave it there, Mr. Morrison. I'm sorry about that.

Mr. Anandasangaree, you have two minutes.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the panel for being here.

I will focus my comments to Chief Sloly. As you know, Chief, I was one of many people who really wanted you to be chief in Toronto because of your phenomenal leadership capabilities. I just want to put that on the record.

You've been in the police service for over 30 years. You were one of the very few, at that time, black men to be part of the police service in Toronto. You've risen through the ranks. What challenges do you think exist today that you had to overcome, that, if you were leading a service, you would change? What I hear from many front-line officers, especially racialized officers, is that there are many obstacles to growth and to retention. Can you highlight the top three challenges that you think could change policing, especially with respect to recruitment and retention?

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

In less than a minute, unfortunately....

1:10 p.m.

Chief of Police, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Peter Sloly

You referenced recruitment and retention. I think we're actually doing an amazing job of recruiting. It's our coach officer programs—and again, I don't put this on the coach officers. We haven't enabled that first line of cultural change, which is the actual coach officer program being sophisticated and robust enough to really maintain the vitality of the quality and diversity of what we're bringing in, but the quantity of that has increased.

The second is leadership. We have not, as a leadership group, including me, been able to make the case for change. We have not been able to articulate the issues, such as systemic racism and individual bias. We need to do a much better job of educating ourselves and, therefore, enabling ourselves.

The last point is that we have to stop fighting with each other, the front line against management, management against the associations. In fact, we've had a great relationship with leaders, such as Tom Stamatakis. We have had a misrepresentation of the relationship between front line and management, and management and unions, in the media. We need to stop being divided and conquered. We need to be far more united in our approach.

I think those are three big areas that will advance this issue.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you.

Mr. Vidal, you have two minutes, please.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to get right to my question. Obviously, we're working under some tight time frames. It's for Chief McFee.

Mr. McFee, you come from northern Saskatchewan, which is my stomping ground as well. In your time as the chief of police of Prince Albert, you instituted a very proactive, inclusive approach to community policing, which was referred to as the “hub” back then, and then in your time as the deputy minister of corrections and public safety in Saskatchewan, moved that across the province. I would love for you to talk about some of the successes and the positive results you had out of instituting that proactive policing and care model.

1:15 p.m.

Chief of Police, Edmonton Police Service

Chief Dale McFee

There are 155 of them in Canada and the U.S. right now. I was just on the phone yesterday with Baltimore PD looking at launching one in Baltimore.

What it really is, in a nutshell—I'll try to be quick so that we have more time—is exactly what we're talking about, with there being [Technical difficulty—Editor]. Put the right service providers in. Put the person and the problem into the equation. Stop worrying about who owns it and just get to the solution, to get the people some help.

You're aware that most of the government right now measures what they take in. Nobody measures what they get out of the system. The reality is that police are over-responding to most of this because they are one of the 24-7, 365 things available. Now, that said, the fact that you respond doesn't mean you should own. We need to use the collective voice, the collective wisdom, the data, the expertise to get the right service connected.

Going back to what I was saying, the fact that the police control 100% of the intake into the justice system doesn't mean that everything should go to the justice system. It's time to change the structure. We've been operating in silos called ministries of health, social services, education for too long. Think of any business. If you ran it for the last 75 years under the same structure, would it be in business today? Probably not. The data now has given us the ability to do things better.

To Tom's and Peter's point, use that first contact to be meaningful in getting people help. There's still the justice system for the serious people, and they need to be in the justice system, but when it's the vulnerable people, a collective response is needed. It's putting all the agencies, including the not-for-profits, together to do it.

Here is just one little bit that I'll leave with you. Do the math on how much money is spent on all those things together. When I was in my job, I started to do this through the CRA. It's huge.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I must apologize for being the guy who seems to have the axe around here.

Finally, Madam Damoff, take two minutes, please.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Thank you, Chair.

My questions are for the chiefs. You may not have time to both respond, but you both said that the police shouldn't be responding to the number of mental health calls that you have. I know Chief Nish from Peel. I saw him say that about 82% of their calls are mental health or addictions-related. I recently read that the RCMP has said over 60% of its calls during COVID have been for mental health.

I don't know that police are necessarily the right group to be responding. I know there's an argument to be made for that view, but if you look at institutions where people who have addictions and mental health issues are put, it's the staff who respond and not police. If you look at long-term care—people with Alzheimer's—there's violence that occurs there.

There are great models. Chief McFee, I've heard about your hub model. Can you speak to whether we could be training people to respond to some of these calls, so that we're not sending police to these mental health and addiction calls?

1:15 p.m.

Chief of Police, Edmonton Police Service

Chief Dale McFee

I think you're onto the crux there, MP Damoff. I think it's a little bit broader than that. They have to be safe first, so responding collectively, together, will give you that solution, and eventually, in time, hopefully you can design a better system.

The reality is that it should be a screening in the dispatch centre first, with a professional mental health worker who has to make the right assessment on the call, to try to get enough information in today's day and age to send the right response. That's what I meant. If you had police and EMS within the same area and had a better service provider, including the not-for-profits, you would absolutely reduce this by 20% or 30% overnight.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I only have 15 seconds. Are you saying that you could actually be determining who needs to be dispatched and then send them out to the call?

1:20 p.m.

Chief of Police, Edmonton Police Service

Chief Dale McFee

Absolutely. We're in a day and age of AI and everything else, and we're not using it collectively.

July 24th, 2020 / 1:20 p.m.

Chief of Police, Ottawa Police Service

Chief Peter Sloly

The federal government controls the standards for next-generation 911. You can actually build that standard so that every police agency in every part of the country has to have that triage capability in next-generation 911. This is a federal responsibility that can trickle down into every single jurisdiction.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Thank you.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

That's very useful.

Thank you, Madam Damoff.

This has been one more just extraordinary panel in this study. I want to thank the witnesses for your contribution. It's very encouraging, as a citizen of this country, to hear such a profound articulation of the issues that face policing in our country, and it's a great contribution to our study. I want to thank you for it.

Before I ask for the adjournment, our members need to know this: If you don't get the password, you should please email the clerk, because there's a new number to get into the call and a new password. That will all be sent to you.

I hope it's all sent to you, but apparently some of you have not been getting it.

Again, thank you, witnesses. We're adjourned,