Public Safety Committee on July 24th, 2020

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I believe there would be value in having a member of the commission who is indigenous—and just to clarify, we're called members, not commissioners.

I also believe, yes, we would be strengthened by having indigenous investigators. That said, my investigative team at the commission is quite diverse, but we do need to move forward with having a greater indigenous footprint here at the commission.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Mr. Morrison, you have three minutes.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses today. It has really been a great conversation so far.

My first question is going to be to Dr. Parent.

I know you were involved in recruiting into JI, the Justice Institute, and I wonder if you were comparing that or if you've been to Depot.

I guess the question is that we talk a lot about the training of the RCMP and municipal police forces at effective levels. Should there be more training? Should there be changes? I wonder, with your experience, whether you can elaborate a bit on the difference in training or if you feel that six months is enough for the RCMP and the municipal police. They're a bit different, but could you maybe just provide us with some of your expertise?

[Dr. Rick Parent]

I think the training is very similar. Again, I would argue that there should be more of this customer service, client-oriented focus for the recruits.

In fairness to the RCMP, they have a tough go. Once they leave Depot, they're posted somewhere in Canada. Typically, they're running short. That's a constant theme in the RCMP.

While the training is good in Depot and very comparable to other police academies, whether in Ontario, Quebec or in British Columbia, where the RCMP needs more direction or more assistance is once the recruit is deployed in the field, because often the recruit will leave Depot and will go to northern Saskatchewan or northern British Columbia. I know many of these people. I've been out there with them. They will have a matter of days, maybe a week or two, with another officer. Basically, they're flying by the seat of their pants when they get out into these areas. All they can draw upon is the six months' training they've had and whatever life skills they've had in the past.

They tend to hire young people, and a lot of the young people come from university backgrounds or academic backgrounds, which is nice, but again, they lack a lot of the people skills and what we used to term as “common sense” is not that common anymore. When we're dealing with complex problems, with different cultures, with diversity, they might or might not have those skill sets and abilities.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I did actually bring up with the commissioner the question of hiring locally—in other words, hiring provincially or territorially—so that you get people who actually want to go to those small communities, rather than those who may be looking for the bigger centres.

For example, in Delta they hire for people to stay in Delta, but in the RCMP, they're going to go all over. Part of the solution may be to hire people locally who, therefore, want to be in that area.

[Dr. Rick Parent]

I totally agree with you. I think that's one of the biggest problems, which could easily be fixed, with the RCMP. They have this model. In Vancouver, many of the recruits—friends, students of mine—will come from the Vancouver area, and they want to work in the Vancouver area with the RCMP, but they wind up in northern Saskatchewan. They therefore quit after 18 months or two years and join a municipal police service, which again results in a shortfall of RCMP officers.

The RCMP, then, has a model that needs to be fixed. I agree with Christian that there are many ways to fix it without spending a lot of money or making a lot of big changes. You need, though, some civilian influence, and I think the problem is that most of the influence in the RCMP is internal, and it doesn't get any better as time goes on.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Morrison.

Madam Khera, take three minutes, please.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks again to everyone for being here. I'll start with Ms. Lahaie.

Ms. Lahaie, can you please clarify for me the number of complaints you get and how many you get based on race and discrimination?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

The number of complaints that we receive on a yearly basis is between 3,000 and 3,500. The categories of allegations we have do not include discrimination or racism, but I can tell you that over the course of the last five years we've received 76 complaints that deal with racism, bias or discrimination.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

That number is quite low, if you compare it with the realities, and especially the realities of the racialized communities and perhaps the testimonies that we've been hearing.

How are you tracking that they're based on racism or discrimination?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

We're tracking it because the individuals indicate that they believe they've been discriminated against based upon race or culture or religion. The individuals actually come out, and oftentimes with complaints with respect to officer conduct or perhaps a negative attitude. The individuals will frame it by stating that they believe they've been discriminated against based upon race.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Can you clarify? Given that there's a clear differential of results from racialized people, I hope you're not concluding that there's a low number of complaints based on racism, or that there is little or no systemic racism within the RCMP.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

No, I'm not at all making that conclusion. As I indicated in my remarks, one thing the commission has noted is that indigenous people do not make use of the public complaints system. That is an issue for us that we need to work on. The best way to work on it is through better public education and better outreach, and the only way we get to that place is through increased resources and a statutory requirement to perform those activities.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Lahaie, would you say that the CRCC is representative of the communities it serves? Could you provide us with an overview of how many women, black, indigenous and racialized Canadians there are at the commission?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

I'll be able to provide you with those statistics afterwards. I don't have them at my fingertips right now.

I can tell you that the commission is very diverse. In terms of gender balance, we're approximately 55% women, as a matter of fact, here at the commission, and we have a very diverse population.

I can provide you with those specific statistics afterwards. I'll send them to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. We'll have to leave it there.

Mr. Uppal, take three minutes, please.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Thank you, and thank you to all the witnesses.

Professor Leuprecht, the National Security Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians in 2019 did an annual report in which they reviewed inclusion and diversity within the RCMP, and the report statistics showed that visible minorities were under-represented in the RCMP, including among senior ranks.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

I think it demonstrates the value of having an independent review of organizations by parliamentarians of the changes that the government has put in place. I think the NISCOP report is very important for everyone to read. As you point out, it is the first independent triangulation of representation within the force, and it strengthens my case for the challenge of drawing from the ranks in the senior representation of management.

I think part of the previous conversation also suggested that there are good reasons that many minority communities may not be particularly interested in joining the uniformed ranks of the RCMP but may be much more interested in joining the civilian ranks. If, then, we want to have a more representative RCMP, civilianization is an important step in that direction.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Thank you.

Chairperson Lahaie, you mentioned that the commission is very diverse. Do these members also have broad experience in policing?

[Michelaine Lahaie]

On the commission right now in terms of policing, we do have some staff members who are former police officers. I must point out our role, though. We are civilian oversight. We take that very seriously. The most important thing from a staff perspective is that the staff of the commission need to have a diverse and broad range of experiences coming from very different areas. For example, if I look at my investigative team, some of my investigators are former police officers, but some come from more of a social background. That really provides us with a diverse experience here and it provides us a very diverse lens on the investigations that we do.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Uppal, you have about 30 more seconds.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

My next question will take too long, so I'll wait. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Madam Damoff, you have three minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.

I want to start by getting something on the record. The fact is that the overrepresentation of black Canadians and indigenous peoples in the criminal justice system in Canada is just as bad as in the United States. In terms of people shot by the police, 30 people in Canada were killed between January and June. Three indigenous people were killed in three days in Winnipeg. To say that Canada isn't as bad as the dumpster fire in the United States is to do a disservice to those who have been killed and their families. I just wanted to get that on the record.

Ms. Lahaie, I looked at the flow chart on your website about how to file a complaint. I've had conversations about the process with Dr. Allen Benson, whom you probably know. He has indicated that the process is so difficult that many people have to hire a lawyer in order to file a complaint with the RCMP. As a result, many indigenous people who have experienced racism and discrimination actually never file a complaint.

I applaud the work you've done in translating into other languages, but I'm wondering if you've considered simplifying the application process so that it's easier for individuals to file those complaints.

[Michelaine Lahaie]

Yes, as you point out, we have done translation into many different languages. The best way that we can make the system more accessible is through increased public education and outreach. You are correct that when you look at that flow chart on our website, it can be highly confusing, but we've simplified the complaint form a great deal over the course of the past few years.

As well, we have intake officers. If individuals choose to make a complaint with respect to the RCMP, we have a phone number and we have an email address. They can reach out. We have very well-trained staff who can talk people through the process and explain to them exactly how it will work.