Evidence of meeting #11 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indigenous.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Myrna Lashley  As an Individual
Fabrice Vil  As an Individual
Viviane Michel  President, Quebec Native Women Inc.
Brian Sauvé  President, National Police Federation
Ruth Goba  Executive Director, Black Legal Action Centre
Dwayne Zacharie  President, First Nations Chiefs of Police Association

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you very much, President Zacharie.

With that, we're going to go to five-minute rounds. The first questioner is Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sauvé and Mr. Zacharie, thank you for your testimony. I'd like to say that, personally, I support police forces 100%, be it the RCMP or Canada's provincial and municipal police forces, or police forces on indigenous reserves.

I have talked to a number of police officers lately, and the vast majority of officers in Canada are people doing their job who want to ensure order and safety for all Canadians and everyone who lives here, regardless of race. Of course, there are exceptions, but it's important to point out that the vast majority of police officers are honourable people who want to do their job. I thank them for that.

The fact remains that, obviously, we have problems. We've got problems and we need to find solutions. I remember my days in the military. I worked on various operations with police officers and I found that it was not always easy to intervene. Intervention was very risky for various reasons. For example, I remember one time when I was in Labrador. There was an indigenous reserve nearby and the military was warned to stay away because it was dangerous.

In these situations, people try to understand why it's risky to intervene on a reserve when they simply want to ensure everyone's safety.

Nowadays, we talk of intervention cameras that could provide answers about intervention, that is, whether the police officer or the intercepted individual is to blame for the various conflicts.

Mr. Sauvé, could you tell me what stage you are currently at in assessing whether or not to introduce cameras for police forces in Canada? I know that the city of Calgary has already implemented the system and that a lot of testing is being done. In the RCMP, for example, where are you at? Is this equipment that you should absolutely have?

3:35 p.m.

President, National Police Federation

Brian Sauvé

Thank you for the question.

We've been on record at the National Police Federation, as I believe have the commissioner and the public safety minister, in support of body cameras for the front-line membership of the RCMP.

I think the challenge we're running into right now, as I mentioned earlier, is that our members have been told for years and years to do more with less. It's a resourcing issue, so in our discussions with Minister Blair and eventually through the finance committee, we will be proposing that you can't do this with internal funding. We have to find money for body cameras. Cameras cannot come at the expense of cops.

The challenge with body cameras is that, although they provide audio and video evidence of an interaction, they are not a panacea. The discussion we're having today really should be to figure out ways to avoid that interaction and ultimately come to a point, in policing in Canada, where we don't need to rely on body cameras or video evidence to determine who's at fault and what's at fault. Really, we should be talking about how we should support social services in Canada to work in partnership with police service agencies in order to have adequate social support networks for all Canadians.

At present, with body-worn cameras, the NPF has been engaged by the RCMP. COVID has been a bit of a challenge in having our first get-together to discuss the specifics of the rollout. For example, how do we comply with privacy? Can you turn it off when you go to the bathroom or receive a phone call from your significant other or your children? Are they on 24-7? It's those types of things.

Really, we're just looking at those details, but I expect it would be fairly quick.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

There's about a minute left.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Mr. Zacharie, I'm from Quebec and, currently, the indigenous communities have a very good relationship with Sûreté du Québec. To my knowledge, they have a good relationship and, generally speaking, things are going well.

If that is really true, could a working model be provided to other provinces or to the RCMP, for example, or am I mistaken?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

If you can answer that in 15 seconds, that would be helpful.

3:40 p.m.

President, First Nations Chiefs of Police Association

Dwayne Zacharie

Yes. Just based on your question, I think that relations between first nation police services and the Sûreté du Québec are going quite well. It's been an evolution. It wasn't always that way. We had to work really hard to get to where we are. With first nation communities, there's still a lot of work that has to be done. We're not close yet.

The services provided here in Quebec generally are by first nation police services, so in that regard we're in a better place. We have support service from the Sûreté du Québec for most of the first nation services.

Working in partnership, I think, is always the way to go. Definitely, there's a model that can be gleaned from all of this.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Zacharie. That was a long 15 seconds.

Mr. Fergus, you have five minutes.

July 24th, 2020 / 3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank you all for your presentations.

Before I ask my question to Ms. Goba, I feel obliged to say that I think it's entirely reasonable for us to question and examine and put the spotlight on police services and the question of systemic discrimination, for the simple reason that we give licence to our police services to use lethal force. As a black man who runs comparatively a 700% risk of suffering lethally from the use of force just because of the colour of my skin, it seems entirely normal that I would want to question this issue.

My question to you, Ms. Goba, is regarding disaggregated data. We've had a number of witnesses talk about the importance of disaggregated data. I was wondering, given your experience, whether you would be able to point us in the direction of any jurisdictions that have successfully used disaggregated data to take concrete actions that led to an improvement in terms of reducing the differentiation that leads to systemic discrimination.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Black Legal Action Centre

Ruth Goba

In the States, data is collected.

I can point to an example, right here in Ontario, where the collection of disaggregated data allowed for the implementation of a system that I believe will assist with the elimination of inequity. The example is in education.

If you live in Ontario, maybe you have seen in the media recently all of the discussions around the Peel District School Board. One of the things the Peel District School Board did was collect disaggregated data on the impact of streaming on the students in the board. It showed atrocious disparity between white students, who were afforded the opportunity to enter into academic courses, and black students, who were streamed and disproportionately put in apprenticeships and other general-level courses.

Having that information allowed the ministry.... It provided evidence to show that it wasn't just anecdotal. It wasn't just black students and black parents saying, “You're being unfair.” It showed the disproportionality based on the numbers in the school. I think about 20% of the students who were streamed were black, when they comprised a much smaller portion of the entire student body.

We've seen it, as well, in the collection of health data in the United States around COVID-19. Where data is collected, you are able to understand where the disparity is, where the difference is, and you can fix it. That is why BLAC consistently calls for the collection of data, not just in policing but in education, where it's made a difference. It will make a difference, I think, in the Peel District School Board, as well as in health care and in employment. We call for data collection not just by the government, but by the private sector as well.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you very much.

I really do believe that you can't change what you can't measure.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Black Legal Action Centre

Ruth Goba

Exactly.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

I'm a firm believer in disaggregated data.

My next question is for Mr. Zacharie. Thank you very much for talking about the importance of first nations police services.

I was wondering if you could share with the committee some of the best practices that a first nations police service that was a member of your association.... Because we have limited time, perhaps there are one or two best practices that you would like the committee to hear about to make sure we can make that recommendation going forward.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

We're back to the impossible question, with 12 seconds left.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Oh, I'm terribly sorry.

3:45 p.m.

President, First Nations Chiefs of Police Association

Dwayne Zacharie

What I can say is that we do have some best practices, if you'd like to discuss them. Absolutely.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Would you be able to share that with the committee?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Can you send them in to the committee?

3:45 p.m.

President, First Nations Chiefs of Police Association

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay, that would be—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Mr. Chair, if it would be useful, I will give my time, my two minutes, to Mr. Fergus so that this question could be answered.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

That's very generous on the part of Mr. Anandasangaree.

You have a further two minutes, then.

3:45 p.m.

President, First Nations Chiefs of Police Association

Dwayne Zacharie

I don't think I'll need the entire two minutes, only because I think that two minutes doesn't do it justice. I think it's probably better for me to submit something about the best practices and the way we go about our models.

Each first nation community is unique, and each first nation police service is developing a model based on the community it serves. No two first nation communities are identical. Even if they are similar, they have differences. I'm from a community called Kahnawake. It's a Mohawk community. About an hour away is Akwesasne. They're both Mohawk communities, but they're entirely different. The models that we use are different, but they're applicable in our territory.

In terms of our first nation policing, what we're really good at is being creative about the way we provide our services. Generally speaking, we're underfunded. We don't have resources, so we have to come up with creative ways to provide services to the communities we serve. In that regard, it's been a really big win for us and for everybody else, our funding partners included. Basically, you're getting policing for pennies on the dollar, in comparison.

When you talk about defunding police—I know that's been out there a lot—first nations policing is kind of the defunded model of policing. We don't have a lot to work with, but we go out there and do the best we can with the resources, and come up with creative ways of providing services to our people.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Fergus and Mr. Anandasangaree.

Ms. Michaud, you have five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for your testimony today.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank the interpreters who do important work for us, the few who speak French at the committee meeting today.

Mr. Zacharie, you made a number of recommendations regarding indigenous policing, including more long-term funding, better coordination between police forces, better training for police cadets on the socio-cultural realities of indigenous communities and access to comprehensive training for indigenous officers.

We often talk of training for all types of police officers, but you feel that the training specifically provided to indigenous officers is lacking. Why do you say that?