Public Safety Committee on July 24th, 2020

[Myrna Lashley]

I can tell you what happened to me when I wrote my report in 2015 for the SPVM. I had difficulty getting the data. There was almost an attitude of “we can't give her this”. I could not enter into their system without their permission, so I was given the data that they allowed me to have. The Armory report, which came out in October—I had one that came out in November—was able to get access to more data, but even they did not get access to all the data.

This comes back to a question that was asked before about civilian oversight. If you had civilian oversight, which would mean a combination of police plus civilians from different communities, I think you would have a better chance of having access to the data. Right now the data is—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm so sorry—

[Myrna Lashley]

Sorry, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I have to keep cutting people off because we have the tyranny of time.

Mr. Fergus, you have three minutes, please.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses at the meeting today for their passionate testimony. I think it's a real privilege for the members of this committee to have such knowledgeable people here.

Ms. Michel, Mr. Vil, I will now ask Ms. Lashley a few questions, but if I get some fairly short answers, I'll be able to ask more.

Ms. Lashley, you pointed out that police forces are made up of members of society and, quoting Sir Robert Peel, you said that, therefore, the police are the public, and the public are the police.

Based on your experience with the Montreal police (SPVM), would you tell me whether police training is a significant part of the answer or whether there is something much deeper?

[Myrna Lashley]

It's something much deeper than that. I don't think we need more training. Honestly, I don't think training is going to change anything. We've done a lot of that. As you may know, I was at John Abbott College. I was the chair of that department. I was the vice-chair of the board of the École nationale de police, and we trained them.

It's not training. We need institutional change; that's what we need. The training is there, but if you put people into a system where the ethos is that it's an us-against-them mentality, the training doesn't matter because they get hooked into that system. They have to work with those people who believe there's a warrior perspective going on. Therefore, I don't think training is the issue. I think we need a fundamental change.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lashley.

Mr. Vil, you and Ms. Michel gave two examples of extreme responses to calls that did not require so many police officers. Can you give us two quick and detailed recommendations to help us address the issue of systemic racism?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, you're going to have to do that in six seconds. I'm not sure how to handle this, because I hate to have to cut off my good friend.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would then ask Mr. Vil to write his reply. We can't make up answers. It has to be said or written by the witness.

Mr. Vil, could you provide your answer to the clerk so we can take it into account in our report?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay, Mr. Fergus. Thank you for your co-operation.

Mr. Morrison, you have three minutes, please.

[Viviane Michel]

I will be sure to send you the answer in writing.

Disciplinary measures for police would effectively prevent police brutality, systemic racism, racial profiling and stop and search. Disciplinary action is necessary—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madame Michel, in order to be able to speak, it has to be through the committee chair. We have quaint traditions around here.

Mr. Morrison, please.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks also to all the witnesses today. It has been really informative.

Dr. Lashley, I really liked your introduction with Peel. It's amazing that, 200 years later, we're still talking about that style of policing with community involvement.

My question to you was actually brought up by MP Fergus. I just want to know what you think we could do in short-term initiatives to address systemic racism today.

[Myrna Lashley]

Short-term, we have to get police chiefs on board. They have to set the way the rest of the system is going to work. It has to be a top-down approach. They have to get back to understanding that they are, in fact, the public, that they are not warriors.

I think that's a short-term thing. They have to pull them all together, and pull them back to understanding what Peel's principles were, why they are important and why they still apply today. I don't think there's any magic bullet. This is hard work that has to be done.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I agree. Thank you very much.

Dr. Lashley, I have another question similar to that. It seems that with all the different witnesses we've had, we've come across this: It's hiring the right people for law enforcement, for policing, and diversity and hiring in the different cultures, people who understand and want to be involved with the community.

Do you have any recommendations for us to move forward with, not only for the RCMP but for policing all across Canada, which includes our very rural areas as well?

[Myrna Lashley]

It's important that they be asked why they want to go into policing. If you cannot ascertain that they're going into policing to proffer a service, they shouldn't be police. If they're going into policing so that they can be in an adversarial position with the public, these are not good police, by definition. The police are the public, and the public are the police.

Someone brought up earlier the fact that if you look at what's going on throughout Europe, especially if you look at the United Kingdom, only in Northern Ireland do you see police carrying weapons, yet they have the same people and they solve the same problems. They have murders, theft, everything.

Mr. Chair, I'm almost finished.

If you look at Kansas, Kansas has actually sent police over to Scotland to learn how to do exactly what you just asked me.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I was actually not signalling the end of your time. I had to scratch the back of my neck.

[Myrna Lashley]

This is like being at an auction: It's a bid.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's right: Twitch the eyebrow.

[Myrna Lashley]

There you go, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madame Damoff, you have three minutes.

Madame Damoff has disappeared.

You're on mute, Pam.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

It's Madame Khera who's next.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Oh. Well, my notes have Madame Damoff, but I'm perfectly happy to have Madame Khera for three minutes.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate it.

Thank you, Pam.

First and foremost, thank you to all the witnesses for the testimony. Your testimonies are extremely significant in addressing these very important and complex issues as we're looking at addressing systemic racism in policing.

Perhaps I'll continue the earlier conversation that Dr. Lashley was having on race-based data. We know that race-based data collection within policing could be extremely helpful for improving public accountability and informing police policies and practices, such as the use of force.

I'm sure you know that our government recently announced that Stats Canada will now begin to collect race-based data on victims of crime and people accused of crime. We know this is important, but can you perhaps talk a bit about the considerations we need to look at in how we use that data so that it isn't used to further reinforce racist stereotypes? How do we balance that?