Public Safety Committee on July 23rd, 2020

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Clearly, what Mr. McCaffrey says is a perfect example of what we are looking for, which is to have our own institutions, as recognized by the United Nations in article 19 of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you very much, Mr. Anandasangaree.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank all three of you for your testimony.

I will now turn to you, Mr. Picard. Earlier, you raised the issue of essential service status. Do you feel that, through the Department of Public Safety, the federal government is fully assuming its responsibility to ensure that adequate security measures are provided to first nations people?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

The original intention is very well received on our part. If the federal government, through Mr. Blair, intends to introduce, for example, a bill that recognizes our police services as an essential service on the same basis as other forces, other police services, that is a good start.

That being said, knowing that this jurisdiction is shared with several provincial governments, it will be important for the federal government to also be able to take a leadership role, so to speak, in influencing some of the ideologies or practices of these various provincial governments. I am thinking especially of the case of Quebec since, much like Ontario, it has a provincial police force that reports to the provincial government rather than to Ottawa. It will therefore be important to also ensure that we have the necessary climate for a good agreement.

Ultimately, what we really want is for communities that once had their own police service and no longer have it to be able to find those means as well.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

You were talking about leadership. Do you feel that the federal government, even though its responsibility is clear when it comes to first nations public safety, is somehow shirking its responsibilities by not providing the necessary resources to develop and maintain a well-trained and adequate security force?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

It’s not the first time we’ve said it. We have a federal program that has been in place since 1991. However, already 10 years after its creation, a number of Mr. McCaffrey’s colleagues, including his predecessors, decried the program, criticized it and finally agreed that it was designed to fail from the outset.

I therefore believe that at this stage, this demonstration is no longer necessary. We know that this program should instead be a legislative framework, as in the case of other police forces in the country, and that it should be adequately funded according to need. It is important to state this here.

I think the federal government must go as far as it can to provide these bases for all our nations and communities. Having said that, I want to emphasize once again that the provincial level also has a responsibility.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

You also talked about Bill C-92, which created the Act respecting First Nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and families, which recognizes first nations jurisdiction, including through child and family services. It can be argued that not all communities are necessarily at the same point.

Do you believe that all communities have been given the tools they need to adequately develop the infrastructure to provide appropriate training for social workers? That also includes financial logistics.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Indeed, if we are to move in that direction, we must make sure that we have all the necessary means to achieve our objectives and that we do not end up, as we did about twenty years ago, with a program that is clearly inadequate for all the communities we are called upon to serve.

Having said that, I believe the federal government needs to go much further with the Act respecting First Nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and families, which you cite as an example. The Quebec government is challenging the act in the courts. I feel that the federal government would play its role a little more effectively if it insisted on the fact that under this act, as could be the case in the legislative framework on indigenous policing, first nations are entitled to exercise their full autonomy and must have the capacity to do so. This is what we are looking for after all.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Earlier, quite often the solution proposed was to allow civilian oversight in communities, to have a body that would be independent to oversee the conduct of the various police services.

What are your thoughts about it?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

There is a big gap. Members of our communities, both those living in our territory and those in urban areas, do not trust the police. We need to find a way to restore that trust.

I gave the example earlier of the City of Montreal. A worrisome event occurred two months ago, in early May. An indigenous woman called for an ambulance, but instead of the ambulance, a contingent of 17 police officers was dispatched along with the City of Montreal's canine brigade.

Fundamental reform is needed, not only on the issue of justice, but also on the relationship between the police and members of our communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there, Madame Michaud. Thank you.

Mr. Harris, you have six minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for your presentations. The passion and the knowledge are very evident, and we're blessed to hear from you all today.

I think this issue is extremely important. I would like to start by asking Police Chief McCaffrey to tell us about use of force, which has been a big issue of course nationally in the last short while, as a long-term, big issue.

Does your police force get different training from other police forces, and what is the nature of that? How does your use of force training differ, and how do your operational activities with respect to use of force differ, if they do, from other police forces?

[Chief Terry McCaffrey]

Thank you very much for that question. I'm very happy to answer this.

There is no difference. Our officers are trained to the same standard that every officer in Ontario is trained to, and that goes for all IPCO representation, so 500 indigenous policing services officers across Ontario are all trained to the same standard in terms of use of force, in terms of de-escalation and everything else.

I think where we are more successful and why we have fewer incidents of having to use situations of force.... It comes down to our direct connection to the community and knowing that it's much better for us to try to de-escalate these situations. That might not be the case in a setting where you don't have a connection to the people you're serving, or not as close a connection, I would say, that indigenous policing has with our communities.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Tell me, Police Chief McCaffrey, what is the relationship between your police force and the OPP in terms of backup? Do you have overlapping police jurisdiction within the areas you police, and how does that work?

[Chief Terry McCaffrey]

Absolutely, the OPP are definitely partners in policing with indigenous police services across Ontario. Commissioner Carrique and the men and women who serve with him in the Ontario Provincial Police are partners with us through and through.

What I can say, though, is that we are chronically underfunded, provincially and federally. It was kind of alluded to by Mr. Picard that this is a program, and it's been based on a program. When you look at how other mainstream policing is funded, they don't just take it upon themselves to say they trust that the police are going to do what they're going to do; it's based on legislation, whereas indigenous policing is based on a program. That's the area that needs to change, and that's the area we need to significantly look at.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I take it that you would support the notion suggested by Chief Picard and Chief Teegee earlier today that there should be a national first nations justice and policing strategy overhaul to cover this issue.

[Chief Terry McCaffrey]

Absolutely, and organizations like IPCO and the First Nations Chiefs of Police Association should be at that table as subject matter experts, and not brought late to the game like we often are.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

In 2018, the then minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness announced up to $291 million over five years in additional support for first nations and Inuit communities served under the first nations policing program, which identified 187 first nations policing agreements.

That doesn't seem to be a lot of money—$58 million or $60 million dollars a year over five years—for that many organizations. Is this an example of the inadequacy of funding? Is it standard? What do we have to do to fix it?

[Chief Terry McCaffrey]

That is standard. I think throwing a large number like that out there makes it seem as though there's a lot being put into things.

Larger organizations such as the RCMP and the OPP are also involved in that funding. What ends up happening is that, in the smaller indigenous services, we all end up fighting over the same scraps.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

It's also indicated by one expert report that a number of communities that wanted to proceed with indigenous policing were turned down or couldn't do it because of unavailability of resources.

How do we actually get there from here? How does a community go from being in a particular situation now to actually having an indigenous police service? How does that process work?

Chief Picard, maybe you could tell us what you think, from your perspective, of the AFN in Quebec and others.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We have about 40 seconds to do that.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Several things are involved in that question. The key is to make sure we have the right conditions from the start. That's what we want with a bill that can recognize as a final and ultimate goal that first nations will have full jurisdiction over public safety.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there, Mr. Harris.

We're now moving on to the three-minute rounds.

I have 15 minutes' worth of people wanting to ask questions in about seven minutes, so I'm going to let it run over the clock, but that will effectively mean we'll bump the second set of witnesses down a little bit. Unless there's a deep objection to this, that's how I propose to run it, colleagues.

That said, Mr. Vidal, you may have three minutes, please.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to comment quickly on what an impressive panel of witnesses we've had today. I wish I had 10 or 15 minutes to ask each of you questions, but as you just heard the chair say, I have three minutes, so I'm going to focus quite quickly.

My first question is for President and Chief McCaffrey. I'm very impressed by your testimony and your resumé, Chief McCaffrey.

I want to talk for a minute about a tribal council in my northern Saskatchewan riding, which recently wrote to the Prime Minister asking about the creation of their own police force for the 12 first nations whom they serve. It's called the Prince Albert Grand Council.

I would like to have you offer any advice on frameworks or first steps or best practices that you would share, from your vast experience and knowledge, that would help them in the establishment of their own service.

[Chief Terry McCaffrey]

Absolutely. My experience with this would be that there would have to be a process. Currently, here in Ontario, first nations policing is not a part of the Police Services Act, but we're working on being legislated into it, which would allow us to become essential services.

That would be the first process, to ensure that it's written in there how the costing would take place, so a process is created for a community to step back and say, we don't want to be involved in these contract services—in Alberta or Saskatchewan, it would be the RCMP—but would like to start our own police service, and provincially we need your assistance to do this. That would start those discussions.

I've seen it happen with the Treaty Three Police Service in northern Ontario; they're the most recent example of this. They went from 23 officers to now being at 90 officers spanning 23 first nation communities across northwestern Ontario.