Public Safety Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2020

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

You also dedicate significant attention to training, specifically at Depot. Many people declare that they were brought in to be broken down and then moulded into something new. Is this at the heart of the systemic harassment and toxic culture, as well as the use of force? You propose educational requirements, better social media screening and other measures. Can you talk a bit more about that and how that can be addressed?

[Michel Bastarache]

The people who accept the new candidates have to be people who accept that the force has to change. Otherwise, they're going to bring in people who are like them, people who are satisfied with the way we're training or bringing in people. If we want to develop a career plan for everyone, it means also that there has to be much more attention to the way we provide training and promotions. Training and promotions are almost one thing because most promotions are based on the fact that you have followed a number of courses and that you have acquired the abilities that are needed for the new function. This is why I don't think it makes sense to have that kind of a program and then bring in people with only a high school education. They're just not going to develop rapidly enough.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a little less than 15 seconds.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay. I don't think I'll be able to ask a question and get a response, but thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Khera.

Ms. Michaud, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue on the training theme.

Mr. Bastarache, earlier you said you preferred that the RCMP accept candidates with university rather than high school training. The RCMP itself says that would prevent it from hiring from target groups such as women, indigenous groups, ethnic minorities and persons with disabilities.

What do you think about that?

Would that really prevent those groups from entering the profession?

[Michel Bastarache]

If they can do it in England, Sweden and the United States, why not do it here?

I don't think that's a real answer. I think we deprive ourselves of people who can help us if our employment standards are too low. If these people come in and can't satisfactorily complete development programs, we're harming more than helping the police. So I don't think so.

What's more, that might create two employee classes: ordinary people who have some education in one, and indigenous candidates and recent immigrants who have none in the other. It would thus create a kind of ghetto within the police force. I'd be very afraid of that.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Although the RCMP claims it offers its members the opportunity to pursue university studies, we see from your report that some women who have suffered injury have been denied promotions because their requests for training were denied.

Do you think there's a lack of consistency between what the RCMP says and what it actually does?

[Michel Bastarache]

There's definitely a discrepancy between the RCMP's policies and values and what actually goes on. That means there's a problem in management and supervision. Those are two things the commissioner must focus on.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. Harris, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Justice Bastarache, perhaps you could answer if I can say this quickly. Should the civilian members of the RCMP, particularly women who are still undergoing trauma and are still in a traumatic environment, in their view, be allowed to be transferred into the general public service without penalty, as they have been in the past?

[Michel Bastarache]

I really don't know, because I don't know what impact that would have on their salaries or on their functions. If they're transferred, there must be more change than just—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I mean to apply, to be able to seek a transfer or apply for a job within the public service without penalty. I guess that's the question.

[Michel Bastarache]

I was told that they can now, but I'm really not....

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Maybe we should look into that. I gather that it's been cancelled, at least for the time being.

Justice Bastarache, the RCMP and Commissioner Lucki seem to have responded in some respect. If you look at their website, they show their Vision150, and I think the commissioner said that this was in part responsive to the racism issues and the lawsuit. You can see a whole list of things that they say they're doing, and they mark them as completed or ongoing or ongoing on track, and they seem to be proclaiming that they've solved these problems.

They have a “dedicated Gender-Based Analysis Plus team” completed and say:

The goal of the Gender and Harassment Advisory Committees is to provide the Commissioner...with advice on: gender, sexual orientation, harassment, equity and inclusivity.

It's completed. There are a whole bunch of issues that are ongoing or on track. The “RCMP's core values” are being reviewed and upgraded, all in the name of modernizing the police force.

Are you satisfied that these issues or this type of approach is going to solve the problem? Have you seen this? Are you skeptical that this has actually been happening and is happening?

[Michel Bastarache]

I have seen that, but it's in the form of a program, of an objective, and I think it's a very good thing because it means that they recognize that there is a problem and that there are certain ways to deal with these problems.

The difficulty they have, I think, is with this lack of trust. The people who are going to be affected by these changes have to believe in them, and believing in them means believing in the leadership—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you—

[Michel Bastarache]

[Inaudible—Editor] a leadership problem—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Madam Stubbs, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Justice Bastarache.

I would just start by saying I'm frankly shocked at the lack of support for victims of crime at all stages in all ways everywhere in this country, and in many ways what strikes me is that your report is also, in fact, touching on a lack of support for victims of crime in many instances. When you cite cases of rape and assault, no wonder there's a lack of trust and confidence when there have been 15 reports saying that over 30 years these kinds of things have been happening.

I would say I agree with your report's comment in the executive summary that it's well past time for the Government of Canada to take meaningful and radical action, and no wonder there's a conclusion that it seems that change cannot come from within.

I hope that this is a reasonable question. Can you tell us if there has been a private response to you or a response that gives you confidence regarding actual concrete actions for change from the person who is literally accountable to every single one of us, the Minister of Public Safety?

[Michel Bastarache]

I've spoken to the commissioner, and it was the first time that I had spoken to her. I don't know her at all. I don't know of her either. But I was impressed by the fact that she recognized the problem. She recognized that there had been a lack of leadership, and she told me of her willingness to address all of these issues and of how she was trying to set up a stronger support for herself in the central administration and even in the supervision of the different districts—the big districts, like the provinces. In that sense, there was a better understanding, I think, within the RCMP of what has to be done.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I'm glad to hear that, and I certainly wouldn't speak for all those many people left to it. I suspect through her long career in the RCMP she may have experienced or seen some of these things herself, so I'm glad to hear that, but my question was really about accountability and the person who's in the ultimate position of power to actually make change after 30 years. Again, can you tell us if the public safety minister has responded either privately or publicly, or if you have any sense as to whether or not he has some kind of concrete plan to actually make change? I know that he also condemned it. I'm sure everyone appreciates that sentiment as all of us here around the table also do, but what can be his job to actually fix this problem?

[Michel Bastarache]

I haven't heard anything from him other than the interview you talked about, a few minutes on television in which he said that he agreed that it was a very severe problem and that it had to be addressed right away. He said he had confidence that the present administration of the RCMP could take control and fix things. That's where he stands. I think if that's the case, he has to sit down with the commissioner and see whether she has the tools to do this. She has to have the budgets, and she also has to have some kind of political support if there are going to be important changes in the structure or the administration. He must give her support if he's going to say that she should really be responsible for implementing all the changes that are required.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you very much for that response, and I would say that so far he's been shockingly passive in his comments, but thank you for setting out that road map of at least some near-term concrete steps he can take.

Thank you.