Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2022

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I'd like to carry on with this theme a little.

This is of particular significance in areas where the police of jurisdiction are, in fact, the RCMP, yet they may well be contracted to municipalities or to the province. When the RCMP are involved, people say, “Well, that's a federal police force,” and they say that because it's a federal police force, the Prime Minister should be responsible, or that you, as Minister of Public Safety, have the RCMP within your purview.

What do we say to those people who are demanding that the federal government step in, in these circumstances? People see arguments about jurisdiction as being excuses, and they want to see action. How do we respond to that?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's a fair point, Mr. McKinnon.

The average citizen, the person who is living in their community, is not concerned with jurisdiction. What they expect is that police at every level will work together and that governments at every level will work together. Certainly over the course of the illegal blockades, that was what we endeavoured to do. Initially that was by providing reinforcements where, according to the advice of the RCMP, they were needed, sending hundreds of Mounties to the community in Ottawa as well as mobilizing additional Mounties in Alberta and elsewhere across the country. Thereafter, where the challenges remained, it was by using the Emergencies Act.

Again, this highlights the differences in the functions we serve. Governments came up with the Emergencies Act because they foresaw that at a certain moment, law enforcement would potentially require some additional mechanisms to be put into place, but, importantly, with safeguards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Minister, thank you for extending the time. We had some technical issues, but we managed to get through two full rounds of questions.

On behalf of the committee, thank you. We understand how the stresses on your time are really quite extraordinary. We're very grateful for your having spent the last hour with us.

Colleagues, we'll suspend so that the clerk can do sound checks for the next panel.

I will be looking at my clock—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'm sorry, but I just want to raise this point of order. I wanted to respect the minister's time, but the member for Vancouver Granville, earlier in this session, on a point of order, cited Standing Order 11 against repetitive questions.

There is no Standing Order 11 against repetitive questions, and there also is no standing order for raising objections to questions you don't like being asked. We all have rights as members of Parliament to ask questions and to not be interrupted by frivolous points of order.

I would ask, Mr. Chair, that you ask the member to provide proof of such a standing order, as he claimed, or to cease interrupting members with frivolous points of order.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Fair enough. I'll take that under advisement.

We will suspend for five minutes. The clerk has to do sound checks for the next panel.

I'll be watching my clock. Clerk, that's five minutes for you, and members of the committee, that's five minutes for you to powder your noses or whatever you want to do.

I'll see you in a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, everybody, for being so alert to our tight time frame. Speaking of which, if we're going to get through two rounds, we'll have to go slightly over the half hour. It looks like that would be between five and 10 minutes, if there are no objections.

Seeing none, I'll call the meeting back to order, everybody.

With have with us, for the second hour, a number of witnesses via video conference.

From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Scott Harris, vice-president, intelligence and enforcement branch, and Denis Vinette, vice-president of the travellers branch.

From the Department of Finance, we have Richard Bilodeau, director general, financial institutions division, financial sector policy branch.

From the Department of Justice, we have Samantha Maislin Dickson, assistant deputy minister, public safety, defence and immigration portfolio.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Talal Dakalbab, assistant deputy minister, crime prevention branch.

From the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis of Canada, we have Barry MacKillop, deputy director, intelligence.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Dennis Daley, assistant commissioner, contract and indigenous policing, and Michael Duheme, deputy commissioner, federal policing.

Members of the committee, there will be no opening remarks. I've been informed that the RCMP will be able to speak only to its own role and support regarding the police action in Ottawa.

I will now open the floor for questions.

Ms. Dancho, you will be leading off the first round. You have six minutes. Please proceed when you're ready.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'm not sure who this should go to, the Department of Justice or possibly the Department of Public Safety. I want to follow up on some of the questions we had in the first hour from my colleague Mr. Brock concerning laws already on the books—I have a big old list here—that could have been used to break up unlawful protests and blockades and mischief. There are plenty of laws to, say, clear blockades at bridges and tunnels and things like that. There are even laws to have individuals aid police, which could be applied to tow truck drivers.

Can someone answer for me again why those laws weren't good enough to fix this problem and why you needed to bring in the emergency powers to fix the problem?

I'm not sure if this should go to the Department of Justice or....

[Talal Dakalbab, Assistant Deputy Minister, Crime Prevention Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Maybe I can start and then turn it over to Sam, my colleague from Justice.

You're correct about the existing laws, but I can tell you that I clearly heard back from law enforcement that they were very happy and supported the additional powers that came through the Emergencies Act. The regulations, such as section 2, that a person must not participate in a public assembly, and section 7, to be able to order the services, really came in handy, as did the financial control measures that were not available before.

I'm just letting the committee know that this is what we heard from law enforcement. They were very satisfied with the additional powers through the Emergencies Act.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Let me just follow up on that. The financial powers, I know, were of particular interest to the RCMP. I have the list here that the Minister of Public Safety tweeted out about the laws from the emergency powers that were used by RCMP. Last I checked yesterday, this was still available online and it outlines only the financial powers.

That aside, the point of what I'm asking is that those financial powers did exist already. You could already freeze bank accounts. It just required judicial oversight. Is that not correct?

[Talal Dakalbab]

I'll turn it over to my colleagues from Finance to answer the financial powers issue.

[Richard Bilodeau, Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Thank you. Maybe I can start and then turn it over to Samantha.

You are correct that the courts are always available to proceed and see about freezing or seizing funds from an account. What the regulations or the economic measures allowed the RCMP and others to do was to share information with financial institutions and for financial institutions to take action on that information if they believed that people were designated. The order facilitated those actions with respect to people who were participating in the assemblies.

From the legal side of it, maybe I can turn it over to Ms. Dickson.

[Samantha Maislin Dickson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Safety, Defence and Immigration Portfolio, Department of Justice]

I would add to what my colleagues have already indicated, that the trigger under the Emergencies Act requires not that other laws be available, but that they be available to effectively deal with the situation. The determination that was made, as I understand it, was that the effectiveness of any statute that may have been on the books to potentially deal with it was not available at the time the declaration was issued.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

You're saying that there were plenty of existing laws to keep the peace and order of our country regarding the blockades, that in Ottawa they just weren't enforced, and that the emergency powers allowed them to be enforced. Is that what you're saying?

[Samantha Maislin Dickson]

Perhaps I can start.

The legal threshold is that there isn't any other statute available to effectively deal with the situation. In terms of determinations that were made in order to assess the declaration, I will pass it over to my colleagues at Public Safety and Finance.

[Talal Dakalbab]

From a public safety perspective, I don't want to repeat what my colleague from Justice said, but it was not about whether they were available or not; rather, it was about whether they were effective or not.

As I mentioned earlier, it was clear that effectiveness required additional powers.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

For the RCMP, which of those additional powers were used? Perhaps the RCMP could answer.

[Assistant Commissioner Dennis Daley, Contract and Indigenous Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good afternoon. I'll start, and I can pass it to Deputy Duheme.

From a law enforcement perspective, I work within the legislation and the tools that I have, with public safety being paramount. In my normal job, I am one of the principle interlocutors between—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I'm so sorry to interrupt you. I only have a few seconds. Could you answer for me, which emergency powers were used by the RCMP?

[A/Commr Dennis Daley]

Within the city of Ottawa, I was not involved in some of the operational planning and that sort of thing, but what I can tell you is that the Emergencies Act worked significantly as a deterrent across the country, first of all. You may have also seen that within the city of Ottawa, there were broader abilities to restrict travel. There were broader capabilities of law enforcement to determine exclusion—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I'm so sorry. If I could force the.... On the list I have online, from the powers you used, can you confirm that the only powers you used were what you placed online, and that they were the financial powers? They were the only ones the RCMP used—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

We're out of time. That's going to have to be a yes or a no.

Can we get a yes or no to that?

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

That should be simple yes-or-no question.

[A/Commr Dennis Daley]

I'm unfamiliar with that document, so I can't make a comment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Ms. Damoff, you're up next. You have a six-minute slot.

Please proceed when you're ready.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I will say that I certainly did not feel safe when I was in Ottawa during the blockade. I know of a young woman who was followed and assaulted. What I heard the minister say was that rape had been threatened, not that it actually occurred.

I have a quick question for Public Safety. There was an insinuation that the minister is responsible for parliamentarians' safety. Could you clarify if it's the minister or the Sergeant-at-Arms?