Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2022

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Brock, respectfully, you're on the other side of the singular opinion of all of those institutions.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

We'll have an opportunity to question them.

They also had numerous operations under the Highway Traffic Act, dealing with parking, honking of horns and blocking of intersections. All of that was available to law enforcement before 14 February. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

They were not—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

The time for that section has been used up.

I'll now turn the floor over to Mr. Chiang, who has five minutes in the second round.

Mr. Chiang, go ahead. The floor is yours.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, witnesses. Thank you for participating today with us.

My question is for Commissioner Lucki. I understand that operationally you may not be able to provide us with every detail about the work your officers conducted over the weekend. However, I'm wondering if you can tell the committee why the action taken by police this weekend was different from the action taken over the past month.

What role did the RCMP play in shaping the operation led by the Ottawa Police Service this past weekend?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Obviously, we were involved from the beginning, but in a more limited capacity at the beginning. We had our protective mandate as one part of the operation, and the second part was assisting the police of jurisdiction, the Ottawa Police Service, to which we provided some resources.

As things ramped up, there was a request for more resources, and we developed a unified command so that we had Ontario police, us and OPS doing integrated planning, because the footprint was not being reduced. In fact, every weekend it was being increased. It would go down after the end of the weekend but the general numbers would never change.

Part of effectively dealing with crowds and illegal blockades is reducing the footprint, and so the plan was based on communications, deterrents and motivations to get people out of the footprint. That's why parts of the EA were very effective in that regard. It was integrated into our planning to reduce the footprint, so that we could deal with what was left after we reduced the footprint of the illegal blockade.

We provided numerous resources, specialized and frontline police officers, and an effective and integrated command centre, which was actually brought into our RCMP building. It had people from all different police of jurisdiction who were going to contribute to the effective enforcement to get rid of the illegal blockade in Ottawa.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much, Commissioner, for those words.

I just want to clarify something with regard to police officers from different provinces coming to Ontario to assist. Without the EA, would they have been able to come across the borders, or would they have been restricted to their own provinces?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, absolutely, under the RCMP model we are allowed, under the provincial police act service agreement within the RCMP, to draw up to 10% of provincial resources into other areas in emergent situations.

One thing the act did was to allow us to avoid the swearing in of our officers for frontline provincial and municipal enforcement. That was one of the things that was brought into the EA. Before that, when we brought people into the province and into the city of Ottawa, they needed to be sworn in, which was more of an administrative streamlining of our services.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.

I understand that the situation we had in the past month was quite fluid, and that the EA was quite good in assisting law enforcement to work co-operatively across the country. If the situation had gotten worse, it would have assisted law enforcement across the country to be fluid and to react appropriately. Would you say that?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes. The EA was used across.... There were many protests that were peaceful and fell within the rules of the law that we dealt with across the country—40 to 50 different ones—but there was one where it went into the illegal realm and the EA was used as a deterrent, first of all to stop people from joining the existing protests, and also to stop convoys travelling across the country to join in on the Ottawa blockade, the illegal protest there.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much, Commissioner.

From your policing perspective, when does a protest become an occupation, that is, from a peaceful protest to an occupation...?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I don't know in regard to an occupation, but what I do know is that peaceful protests follow the rules of the law. When they get into the illegal protests, where they will not follow the law and refuse to leave or are in areas illegally or are blocking the enjoyment of others, that's when they become illegal. That's when they're asked to leave or to make sure there's not an impediment of traffic, for instance, or pedestrian traffic, or the breaking of the various laws Mr. Brock referred to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

Ms. Michaud, the floor is now yours for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I want to go back to my question that you did not have the time to answer.

Unfortunately, I believe that your government exploited the crisis towards the end.

Why did your government threaten parliamentarians to make it into a vote of confidence if we voted against invoking the Emergencies Act?

Did it really justify holding another election?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for your question.

Ms. Michaud, right from when the illegal blockades began, the government's priority was the health and safety of Canadians.

People sometimes have differing opinions on the pandemic, but nothing justifies breaking the law, violating the rights of the residents of Ottawa, and illegal blockades. That's the most important factor.

Making the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act was very difficult, but we did so with a lot of care and we listened closely to the advice from the police forces.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Minister, only a few hours after the vote, you revoked the act yourselves.

What changed between the time of the vote and the time when you revoked the act?

In my opinion, and in the opinion of many, downtown Ottawa was clear and the act was not justified at that point.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Despite the progress made at the beginning of the week, there was still a risk, given that a number of participants remained at blockades outside Ottawa, but at ports of entry. That was a concern to the government and even to the police forces. So we monitored the situation carefully, hour by hour and day by day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I'm sorry, Minister. You're going to have to wrap it up.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

When we made the decision to revoke the act, it was because the situation was no longer an emergency.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacGregor, in this round, you have two and a half minutes.

The floor is yours.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, I don't think history is going to be kind to this whole episode of the last three weeks, certainly for the people of Ottawa, who I think rightly felt abandoned, not only by their police services but by three different levels of government.

When I brought forward this motion to ask you and officials to come here, it was for a discussion not so much of the Emergencies Act and the powers it entailed but really of the events that led to our having to enact it. I think that very action represented a failure. The failure was that we needed this massive suite of federal powers to get the job done.

I really want to try to piece this together.

From January 28 onwards, even before the convoy appeared in Ottawa, the warning signs were there that this was not going to be a normal protest. Ottawa experiences protests pretty much every day of the week. We are used to seeing them on Parliament Hill. They stay; they make their point; they make their voices heard, and they disperse.

I'm just trying to find out why the federal government did not step in sooner to provide that coordination, the logistical and intelligence support, to effectively deal with this. We ended up having our capital, our seat of democracy, basically put under siege.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. MacGregor, I want to assure you that the federal government was very present and supportive of local police. We sent three reinforcements, hundreds of Mounties, to assist the Ottawa Police Service. You heard the commissioner say that she was in touch with the city to offer that support.

I would also point out that if the Ottawa Police Service was incapable of dealing with the occupation, the provincial statute says that the OPP would then step in. If the OPP could not then respond, the RCMP would be there. Throughout, there was communication and support.

I will also say that there are lessons to be taken from the last month or so, Mr. MacGregor. I agree with you, but as much as the Emergencies Act was a tool that could be used, it was effective. It did the job. It clearly helped to put an end to the illegal blockade and the illegal occupation in Ottawa, and that is what it was intended to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister.

Colleagues, we're at the bottom of the hour, but I appreciate the Minister's offer to stay a bit longer so we can finish the second round.

For the information of witnesses and members of the committee, that will be two five-minute blocks, and that will take us to the end of the section.

I have Mr. Brock next, for five minutes.

Is that your understanding, Ms. Dancho?

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

What if I could go first and then defer to Mr. Brock? Does that work for you?