Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

With respect, Minister, I just need a yes or no, please. I think we just need confirmation. Did the City of Ottawa make a request to your government before February 14?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

My simple answer to you is that I think Ottawa had expressed concerns that they were challenged in their ability to use their police service alone to respond to the illegal occupation. There was contact between them and the Province of Ontario, as well as the RCMP, but perhaps the commissioner may want to say more about that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Before we get to the commissioner, Minister, before February 14, did you or the Prime Minister receive any requests from the Conservative Government of Ontario and Premier Doug Ford, to invoke the federal Emergencies Act?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Once again, we were in consistent contact with the Province of Ontario. I had a number of conversations with my counterpart, Minister Jones, who is the Ontario Solicitor General. We were talking about the ability of law enforcement to utilize existing authorities, but they then came to their judgment, as you say, and thereafter we came to ours on the basis of the advice that we were getting from law enforcement.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

In other words, they were transmitting to you that the situation was out of hand. Was that a hint to you? I'm trying to establish for the public whether local or provincial levels of government felt they were sufficiently overwhelmed that they needed the federal government to come in with these extraordinary powers.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That is why we were very responsive in sending three reinforcements to Ottawa. I wouldn't want to leave you or anyone else with the impression that we were sitting idly by as the situation deteriorated, but to the core of your question, we were very much watching the situation with grave concerns.

Mr. MacGregor, you and I had a number of conversations in which we talked about how it appeared that despite best efforts, law enforcement locally could not leverage existing authorities under the Criminal Code or other statutes to bring the situation under control. I think in part that was because of the large number of individuals who had become entrenched in the downtown core and in communities, but we also wanted to be sure that we were listening carefully to the assessment of police at every level. When we came to the determination to invoke the Emergencies Act, it was because at that moment in time.... It wasn't just a matter of Ottawa; it was a matter of the blockades that had popped up right across the country and, even after they had been dealt with, the concern and the very real risk—including in your province of British Columbia—that they might come back. There were concerns, likewise, that they might come back in Windsor. We then took the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act, which was very effective.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I just want to make sure I use some more of my time here. RCMP Commissioner Lucki, I'd like to ask you a question. We heard the minister say that it was the professional opinion of law enforcement that these powers were needed. I received a briefing on two occasions, repeating the same.

Commissioner Lucki, with all of the events that you saw over those first two weeks with the occupation of Ottawa and the blockades, in your professional opinion, was the declaration of public order emergency necessary under the Emergencies Act, and can you please state why?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Obviously, when we are looking at events such as protests or illegal blockades, we look at the whole operational environment and any threats. When we look at it, we have existing authorities under the Criminal Code, the provincial entities and the Ontario emergency act. There were injunctions by the City of Ottawa.

We did use measures under the act when they were put in place. We used, for example.... We don't have anything in existing laws that prevents people from coming to protest, and we can't turn them away, so for us, operationally, it was all about reducing that footprint in Ottawa. The only way to do that was to stop people from coming in or incentivize them to leave. We used it as a big deterrent to people against coming into the area. Yes, in fact, we did use the measures that were put in the Emergencies Act, along with other authorities that we had.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We will now move into the second round of questions. To lead off a five-minute block, we have Mr. Brock.

Mr. Brock, please go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, witnesses, for attending today and for your testimony.

Minister, literally since the 1960s, law enforcement has safely and securely removed illegal blockades and protests across this country without resorting to the War Measures Act or, in the last 34 years, the Emergencies Act. A classic example of that, Minister, is what happened on the Ambassador Bridge in Windsor. Through effective police engagement and through effective containment, they were able not only to remove the protesters but also to remove the blockages on the bridge, literally one day before the invocation of the Emergencies Act.

Law enforcement, sir, had all the necessary tools under the Criminal Code, the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, Ottawa bylaws and court injunctions to end this illegal blockade. The Prime Minister confirmed this literally days before the invocation of the Emergencies Act.

Before February 14, 2022, Minister, you will agree that law enforcement had numerous powers to arrest under the Criminal Code, first, starting with mischief under section 430 of the Criminal Code, which is defined as wilful acts to destroy or damage property, or obstructing, interrupting or interfering with the lawful use or enjoyment of property or with any person in the lawful use of that property.

You'd agree with me, Minister, that this was available to law enforcement before February 14, 2022. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Brock, I would agree that those authorities existed prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act and that they were on the books and that they were available to police, but one requires—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Minister—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

No, if you'll permit me to finish, Mr. Brock—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It was a yes-or-no question, Minister. You answered it. It was available.

I have five minutes. This is my time, Minister.

You'll agree with me that, under section 175, causing a disturbance, activities such as “fighting, screaming, shouting, swearing, singing—”

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, Bosc and Gagnon state that we have to be respectful of our witnesses, that we have to give them.... It's not respectful to deny the minister a chance to respond to the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Your point is well taken. Let's proceed.

Mr. Brock, it's back to you.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You'd agree with me, Minister, that causing a disturbance by the activities that I just described to you was available to law enforcement prior to February 14, 2022, under section 175....

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Brock, what I was attempting to say was that you have to read the Emergencies Act. It says that the law is effective at dealing with “a national emergency”. My point to you and to all Canadians was that despite the presence of those laws, they were not effective at dealing with the illegal blockades and the occupation. That was the advice that we were receiving from law enforcement and one of the main reasons we invoked the Emergencies Act.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

My question to you, Minister, was that it was available to law enforcement to effect an arrest for causing a disturbance for many of the activities complained about by numerous residents in downtown Ottawa: Do you agree with me?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Brock, you're missing the point. The way the law works is that it isn't just about whether or not the law is on the books; it is whether or not it is effective in dealing with the illegal blockades and the occupation and—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

With respect, Minister, that is a law enforcement issue. The law was available for them to use. Whether they utilized it is a separate issue.

My question for you is, was that available to law enforcement, yes or no?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Brock, you misunderstand the application of the law as well as how law enforcement interprets it. Their advice to the government was that the existing authorities were not effective at dealing with the illegal blockades and the occupation.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Well, law enforcement at Coutts, Alberta, had no problem invoking the Criminal Code to take care of those criminal activities without the Emergencies Act, did they? You would agree with me that they didn't need the Emergencies Act to arrest for the attempt to murder or the other serious offences, did they?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Brock, notwithstanding that, the tools that were afforded law enforcement were necessary for the purposes of addressing the illegal blockades and the occupation. That advice came from very experienced law enforcement, including the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Police Association, which represents the rank and file.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

We'll examine those individuals in the future. We'll examine those—