Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2022

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I can't believe you put us in danger in that way, to be honest. That seems very irresponsible to me.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Secondly, Ms. Dancho, respectfully, there were Ottawans who were subjected to intimidation, harassment and threats of rape, and those were all supported by—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

How could we possibly have been allowed to walk by that every day?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I'm sorry. The time has elapsed on this round. We now move to Mr. Noormohamed.

Sir, you have six minutes. Whenever you are ready, go ahead.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for joining us.

First, I'd like to ask you a question following on Ms. Dancho's question, because I think it's important for the public to be aware of the facts of the matter.

Who is responsible for the safety and security of parliamentarians? Is it the Minister of Public Safety or is it the Parliamentary Protective Service?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The responsibility for parliamentarians and their staff and everybody who works on the Hill is principally with the Sergeant-at-Arms and the Parliamentary Protective Service, but there are supports that are offered by the RCMP.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, we all saw what happened in Ottawa. Certainly, my experience and the experience of other members of Parliament was clearly very different from Ms. Dancho's experience in terms of what we saw and what we heard when we were crossing the street.

Twenty-one days is a really long time for the citizens of Ottawa. There are a lot of folks who wonder why the federal government didn't step in earlier.

Why did it take 21 days for the federal government to ultimately have to step in?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, I would point out, Mr. Noormohamed, that the government had stepped up quite clearly and concretely with supports to the Ottawa Police Service; we had sent three reinforcements. In fact, I believe—and the commissioner can confirm—that we probably sent more Mounties to the Ottawa Police Service, to Ottawa, than we did anywhere else, and that was something we were quite content to do.

If you'll permit me, Mr. Noormohamed, I'd like to come back to Ms. Dancho's question, because it really quite mischaracterizes the essential nature of the illegal occupation we saw in Ottawa. There may have been some who were able to make their way through, but I assure you and everyone on the committee, and all Canadians, that what was occurring in Ottawa was a sustained and flagrant breach of the law that laid to siege the community and neighbourhoods. Families could not drop off their kids to daycare; seniors could not get around for lack of access to transportation; women were threatened, harassed and assaulted.

These are not just the insinuations of the governments. These facts are borne out by the criminal investigations that ensued, carried out independently by law enforcement, leading to charges under the Criminal Code, which, as you know, Mr. Noormohamed, is the most serious statute that one can be charged under.

It's very important that we are clear about the facts and are clear about the record. The record and the facts clearly demonstrate that Ottawa was subjected to an illegal occupation, which was one of the main reasons we had to invoke the Emergencies Act.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Minister, does it concern you, then, on the basis of what you've said, that there are people who continue to seek to minimize this as a peaceful protest, a minor inconvenience and the price of living in a democracy?

What would you say in response to that for people who don't see the threat that you may have seen and who don't see organizers such as Pat King, who have promoted violence in the past, as part of the problem? What would you say to Canadians who feel that way?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would tell anyone who believes that about what was occurring outside of Parliament or at the borders to look beyond their own individual experiences, to look at the facts and the record, and to take a look at the devastating impacts that were visited upon Canadians.

For example, in Windsor, as a result of an illegal blockade to stop the flow of essential supply chains, Canadians were laid off; plants were shut down and questions were raised as to Canada's capacity to carry on the roughly one-quarter of our daily trade that we do with our most important trading partner, the United States.

Take a look at what happened in South Surrey, B.C., Mr. Noormohamed, in your province, where there was an effort by those participating in the illegal blockade to use an armoured vehicle to crash through a barrier that had been put up by the RCMP to control and to bring back to order the situation at the Pacific Highway port of entry. Take a look at what happened in Manitoba, in Ms. Dancho's home province, where for weeks and weeks individuals have been carrying on an illegal protest and occupation outside of the legislature there.

We can't bury our heads in the sand and trivialize and minimize what has gone on here. The size and the scope and, frankly, the simultaneous nature of these blockades that so challenged law enforcement and their ability to use existing authorities took us to the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act, but it worked.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I know I'm running short on time, but I have a question for Commissioner Lucki based on what you've just said, Minister. I have 30 seconds left.

Canadians have been asking why the RCMP, the national police force, did not go in there and clear everything out on the first day in Ottawa.

Commissioner Lucki, can you tell us why the RCMP was not in a position to do that?

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

The Ottawa Police Service are the police of jurisdiction, and if they need assistance, under the Ontario Police Act, their first request should go to the Ontario Provincial Police, which is responsible for assisting any municipalities within the province of Ontario. That would be their first ask.

Given the scope, we did assist on the first weekend. We offered our assistance and we honoured any requests from OPS for additional resources or expertise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Minister, we're at the top of the hour, but given the technical delay we had earlier, can I ask on behalf of the committee if you are prepared to stay longer so that we can get through the first round of questioning?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Of course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Michaud, it's over to you for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the minister and the witnesses for being here. We are grateful that they could quickly make themselves available.

Mr. Minister, on February 14, the 18th day of the siege of Ottawa, your government indicated that it would be invoking the Emergencies Act. The next day, February 15, Quebec's National Assembly unanimously passed a motion asking your government to not enforce the act on Quebec territory. In Quebec, there was no major problem that would justify such enforcement, nor was there anywhere else in the country. The blockades in Windsor, Emerson and Coutts were dismantled in large part by local police forces. The Prime Minister even said that the emergency measures would be geographically targeted. Essentially, the only crisis was in Ottawa. But when we saw the order, we realized that the act would apply everywhere in Canada.

Why did you not respect the will of Quebec, and actually of other provinces that made the same request?

I will also add that believing that there might be another demonstration does not seem to me to be a valid reason for invoking the act.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for your question.

Yes, we consulted with the Quebec government, and with municipal leaders. I had a very constructive telephone conversation with the mayor of Gatineau. She expressed some concerns about the illegal blockades.

As for your question about the way in which the act operates, yes, when the government decides to invoke it, it applies everywhere. However, the measures described in the declaration went into effect only where they were needed. Police forces can use all those measures in a very targeted and time-limited way, always in compliance with the charter.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I understand that, but Quebec had expressed its view that it was not necessary to go that far. Furthermore, everything leads us to believe that the siege of Ottawa could also have been dismantled with normal legal and legislative tools.

You invoked the act on day 18, yet you have basically nothing to show that you tried anything else in the first 17 days before you came to this measure of last resort. The evidence is that, when people were begging you to act on behalf of the residents and business people in downtown Ottawa, you were telling us over and over again in the House that it was not in your jurisdiction.

So when did you learn that a large convoy was heading for downtown Ottawa and, as of that moment, what steps did you take?

Did you receive any internal briefings or legal opinions that gave you options other than invoking the Emergencies Act?

If so, could you provide them to the committee?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for your question.

The government adopted many measures after the blockades began at the end of January and the beginning of February. For example, we made a number of commitments with the City of Ottawa. I talked with Mayor Watson a number of times, as did some of my government colleagues, including Minister Blair. The RCMP commissioner spoke with the former police chief a number of times and she has remained in contact with the police.

With those processes and those commitments with the City of Ottawa, we were able to provide additional resources, not once, not twice, but three times. On three occasions, the RCMP sent reinforcements into the field to help resolve the situation that was distressing for the residents of Ottawa.

The government therefore took a number of steps during the blockades before deciding to invoke the Emergencies Act.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

I'll come back to the RCMP and the additional support later. First, I'd like to ask you a question.

I feel that your government perhaps politicized or exploited the crisis. The major police operation that we saw last weekend and that cleared downtown Ottawa shows that it was not the Emergencies Act that did the job, it was actually a well-coordinated police operation.

When the vote was held on Monday evening, the downtown had been cleared and there was nothing to justify the act being passed. Nothing led us to believe that the country's territorial integrity was being threatened or that there was a national crisis. Your government threatened parliamentarians that you would make it into a confidence vote if they opposed it. A few hours later, you revoked the act yourselves.

So I wonder what changed between the time the vote was held on Monday evening and the time you decided to revoke the act. To my knowledge, downtown Ottawa was clear at both those times and nothing indicated that we were in a crisis situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I'm sorry, Ms. Michaud. Time is up.

I want to give the minister 10 seconds to respond.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

As a very quick answer, the police forces used all the measures in a very effective, very targeted, and time-limited way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, you have the last slot in the first round for six minutes. Whenever you are ready, please proceed.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you, Minister Mendicino, for being here. I just want to walk our committee through a bit of a timeline. We started to see the occupation of Ottawa on the weekend of January 28 and 29. About a week later, on February 6, we saw the City of Ottawa declare a local state of emergency. A state of emergency was declared by the Province of Ontario on February 11 and, at the time, Conservative Premier Doug Ford said, “We are now two weeks into the siege of the city of Ottawa. I call it a siege because that's what it is. It's an illegal occupation. This is no longer a protest.” Of course, the federal government declared a public order emergency on February 14.

Minister, my very specific question to you is this. Before February 14, when your government made the declaration, did you or the Prime Minister receive any requests from the City of Ottawa to invoke the federal Emergencies Act?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

There was a very consistent line of communication, not only between my office—