Public Safety Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

What are the tools you need to really combat this rise, which seems to be fostered by foreign governments as well? There's a tie: Putin's FSB promotes far-right hatred and targets individuals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Please answer very quickly, Mr. Vigneault.

[David Vigneault]

Very quickly, I would say that we need to have a national discussion on this, because, as I said, it is at more than just the federal level.

From a CSIS point of view, it's the ability to get access to data. The previous line of questioning regarding the Supreme Court decision on Bykovets is one that we are actively looking at. The concern we have is that the proper judicial authorization is required to be able to take those IP addresses so that we can get to the actors and apply the tools that we have.

This is a very serious concern.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

We're going to do two minutes for the Conservatives and two minutes for the Liberals, and then we're calling it a day.

Mr. Caputo, you have two minutes, with a hard stop.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Chair. Through you, the following question is for Commissioner Kelly.

Commissioner, the judge in the Bernardo case.... I'm not sure about the sentencing comments in Magnotta or Williams, but I'm sure they were the same. They said that these were people who could not be rehabilitated; they were sadistic. The service has its own metrics on that, yet they are routinely transferred to medium security.

Does the CSC and do you view that as a just resolution?

[Anne Kelly]

Again, we have a rigorous process in place to assess the security classification of offenders. I would say they are appropriately placed. I would also say that in maximum security, over 95% of the inmates who are there are there because they are a threat to the staff; they are a threat to the institution, and they are a threat to other inmates. That's who is in our maximum-security institutions.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Just so I'm clear from what you said, you view it as appropriate that the likes of Magnotta, Bernardo, Williams or whoever are appropriately held at maximum security and that is a just outcome given what their victims have gone through.

[Anne Kelly]

Obviously, my heart goes out to the victims whose lives have been changed forever by the heinous crimes that have been committed by these individuals, but, again, we have a rigorous security classification process. In the Bernardo case, as you know, we did a full review. We actually did two reviews. In the end, the reviews concluded that we had respected the laws and the policies.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Of course. Those laws we know. We know who instituted those laws and those policies. Yes, the laws were followed. They just led to an unjust result.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Mr. Caputo, your time is up, please.

Ms. O'Connell is next, for two minutes.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to follow up with Commissioner Kelly on that very point.

You've made this point before, but for some reason I guess Conservatives don't want to be confused by the facts. In terms of sentencing, the facilities themselves are not connected to sentences themselves. It's in and around the organization of the prison itself. You identified that maximum-security prisoners pose a threat to the safety of the correctional workers and to other inmates. Where prisoners are held is not a condition of sentencing; it's a condition of corrections being able to control and contain and keep the public safe.

Is that correct?

[Anne Kelly]

That's right. When offenders come to us, we have a responsibility, like I said, to make an assessment on their security classification and ensure they are transferred to the appropriate institutions based on a series of factors. Once we've assessed them, we have to determine which institution is the best to meet the security requirements, the interventions that are required and programs that are required.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

If it was truly a continuation of sentencing, wouldn't a former prosecutor know that sentencing and those decisions of the courts and what the prosecution can even ask for don't include facilities, because it is not a continuation of punishment? The punishment is the sentence itself—

[Anne Kelly]

That's right.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

—and this individual being removed from the community. That is why it is left up to correctional experts on how to take that individual and properly secure them away from the public and properly keep Correctional Service officers safe.

[Anne Kelly]

That's right.

We administer the sentences imposed by the courts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

Before we go any further, we have project budgets for committee approval. The clerk has distributed to members yesterday two project budgets regarding our meeting today and the 106(4) meeting on March 11.

Do I have agreement from the committee to adopt these budgets?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Good.

We've also had an invitation from a Ukrainian delegation. What I think I'm going to do on this is allow the clerk to circulate it to members and get a decision on what you feel is appropriate. We do have a date and a time here. I'll get him to do that.

Also, there's an update on the visit to the port of Montreal. We're going around and around on this one. I would really like to get it settled for the clerk's effort on this. The clerk has suggested that he work with the whips, if that's okay.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Okay. We'll do that.

Witnesses today, I think sometimes we take you guys for granted for everything you do and all the staff you have. We certainly appreciate your time here today and your professionalism. We hope to see you back.

Thank you so much.

The meeting is adjourned.