Public Safety Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Anne Kelly, Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

No, I cannot confirm that information.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

How about Guy Turcotte? Is he also there?

[Anne Kelly]

I can also not confirm that information.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Did you confirm that Luka Magnotta was there? Did the CSE eventually confirm that?

[Anne Kelly]

Well, that's in the public domain right now.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay. How about Paul Bernardo? Did the CSE eventually confirm that he was there?

[Anne Kelly]

That was also in the public domain.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not asking whether it was in the public domain. I'm asking whether the CSE confirmed it for those two offenders, but you're not prepared to confirm it for the other two. Is that correct?

[Anne Kelly]

That's right.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay, so we have one set of rules and another set of rules. I'm clear there.

Minister, as you know, we have the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, and it talks about the regulations. We're clear, obviously, on that.

Now, when it comes to the regulations, the government, the minister—you—have control over those regulations. Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

There's a process through Treasury Board and a regulatory process, but I recognize that it's in the hands of the cabinet, yes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It is in their hands, so the final say over the regulations is with the government. We can be clear on that. Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, I'm not an expert on parliamentary procedure. I think there's a committee, a joint scrutiny of regulations committee. Our colleagues in the Senate are very interested in these issues. I think I've—

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Minister, let's not get into—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

If you want to have an esoteric discussion on the regulatory process, I'd be happy to have an official—

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

No, I'm not having an esoteric discussion. I'm saying that, when it comes to the regulations, the buck stops with the government. Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, there's a parliamentary review process that I'm not familiar with.

I get the trap in the question. I'll say yes, and then you'll find an example... I recognize that regulations are in the hands of the cabinet.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Minister, it's no trap; it's very clear. The reality is that the government creates the regulations. Then, the CSE, the Correctional Service of Canada, implements those regulations. Those regulations allowed for the transfer of Bernardo and Magnotta. You have the ability to change those regulations. Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The government has a general authority, as long as it's within the four corners of the statute, to change regulation.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not talking about the authority. In this case, Minister, the government could change the regulations, and it hasn't. Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The government has confidence that the regulations are appropriate in giving the correctional service, in its independent and professional judgment, the responsibility of assigning convicted federal offenders, in this case, people convicted of murder, to the appropriate secure federal penitentiary.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

In this case, then, you are okay with the likes of Magnotta, Bernardo and Williams being not only in medium security but being together at La Macaza. Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, for operational security reasons, which the commissioner can elaborate on, we don't discuss or actually do videos telling Canadians where particular inmates are serving their sentences. It's for the security of the men and women who work in those institutions. That's an irresponsible course that I don't think we're going to start on.

I share the concern that Canadians have about—

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Minister, we're not talking about my conduct. We're talking here about the government and whether you will create regulations. Those regulations allowed the transfer of Bernardo. They allowed the transfer of Williams. They allowed the transfer of Magnotta. You're here telling us that, no, CSE is going to do its job.

Minister, you have the opportunity to change those regulations right here, right now. Will you commit to doing this? You've said that you don't intervene on specific cases. I'm not asking for you to intervene on a specific case. I'm asking for you to intervene on a class of offenders. Will you intervene on a class of offenders, an injustice that has happened, and change those regulations right here, right now?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, if you want to be technical, I actually can't change those regulations right here and right now. I explained to you that there's a Treasury Board process—