Public Safety Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I thank the member for her question.

Once again, I share the concerns that Ms. Michaud explained very well.

I've just asked the assistant deputy minister when I'll receive the details on this. I also had this informal discussion with our colleague regarding the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee. We've made commitments and we intend to keep them.

I had a good meeting with the representatives of the PolySeSouvient group at which we talked about issues relating to regulations and the advisory committee. It's a pity that these two questions come one after the other, because, unfortunately, the answer is somewhat the same, namely that it's coming soon; we're close to getting there and I hope to have good news very soon.

I share Ms. Michaud's sense of urgency. We won't wait for my potential successor to restore these important things.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

This is good news, Minister.

To conclude, I want to hear your comments on the Canada Border Services Agency. Your government's latest scandal involves the ArriveCAN application. Some people have proposed simply putting the agency under trusteeship. I'd like to know what you think. Is it the Canada Border Services Agency that is at fault, or is it your government's unfortunate habit of handing everything over to subcontractors?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The circumstances surrounding the ArriveCAN application are worrying. Again, I share the concern of our colleagues and Canadians about the use of public funds.

As you know, investigations are ongoing. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is seized of certain matters. I have great confidence in Ms. O'Gorman, the president of the Canada Border Services Agency, who couldn't be here today. She has already implemented corrective measures. She has changed the way this kind of program is managed. She has changed a lot of habits, and rightly so, particularly with regard to the unfortunate habit of turning to subcontractors all the time. I'm convinced that the measures she has put in place will help avoid imprudent situations where public funds are potentially mismanaged.

My colleagues at Public Services and Procurement Canada and Treasury Board will reinforce these measures. We need to look at the big picture on a government-wide, systemic basis. We can't pretend that it's only at the Border Services Agency that we need to improve transparency and the way we audit spending. Once again, we are fully committed to making these changes. That said, we remain ready to make further changes and to follow the recommendations that will be made as a result of the ongoing investigations, including the Auditor General's recommendations in this regard.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. Julian, you have six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here.

Thank you, Minister, for being with us.

I'll get started quickly.

In response to Ms. Michaud's question, you said you hoped to have good news very soon regarding the gun buyback program and the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee.

What's the timeline? Is it within two weeks, two months, four months? What do you mean by “very soon”?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's a very good question. I understand and share the sentiments expressed.

Mr. Chair, I have spoken informally with Mr. Julian in many respects about the issues surrounding the gun buyback program. I believe that the objectives of the NDP and Mr. Julian—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Forgive me for interrupting you, Minister. I just want to get an idea of what timeline we're talking about.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's a very good question. There's a long list of ministers and MPs who have made commitments to set a specific timeline. It varies by a week or two. I think these initiatives will be in place very soon. I understand—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

What do you mean by “very soon”?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's a very good question—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Is it four, five weeks? What's the time frame?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I won't venture to tell you that it's two or three weeks, because, if it's four weeks, you're going to say I missed it by a week.

I understand and share your concern, Mr. Julian, and I can assure you that I'll be happy to give you further details when I have—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

The next time you testify before the committee, will you be able to tell us about the gun buyback program?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Certainly.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

All right.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I can also organize my schedule to make sure—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

We will invite you to the committee in two months.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Absolutely. I'm committed to it, and I'll appear before your committee again with pleasure.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Very well.

You talked about substantial progress in your initial comments, but the Auditor General's report this week has been incredibly critical, particularly about the first nations and Inuit policing program.

talking about the inquiry into James Smith Cree Nation, Cindy Woodhouse of the AFN said that all the evidence showed that “if a First Nations police service had been equitably funded in the James Smith Cree Nation, this tragedy could have been avoided.”

The Auditor General's report talks about the fact that there is no clear governance around the funding. It's not clearly tracked, and there are dozens of first nations communities that don't have access to policing.

How many communities have been refused in terms of getting a basic police service in place? What is your ministry going to do to fix what is a tragedy?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, I certainly share the concerns expressed by the Auditor General and Mr. Julian.

I had an opportunity to speak with her for probably an hour, in order to understand from her personally the work she has done and the nature of her recommendations. I appreciate that. We've committed, obviously, to correcting some of the challenges she properly identified. I look forward to working with indigenous partners on legislation around designating an essential service and long-term, reliable funding. That's also a challenge. Recognizing her concerns around the proper management of that funding is something we will also do.

One of the challenges—and I'm learning about this long-standing frustration indigenous communities and provincial governments have had—is that we are necessarily in a space where we have to work with provinces and territories. I was surprised...at my first meeting that provincial and territorial ministers, understandably, very jealously guard their jurisdiction in the administration of justice. It makes it complicated, but it shouldn't be a barrier to achieving the results and improvements we want. It does necessarily involve arriving at agreements with different provincial governments and indigenous communities.

I certainly take the concern Mr. Julian expressed. He mentioned the James Smith Cree Nation. Again, that was a tragic circumstance, and we think about the horrible violence inflicted on that community. My colleagues in the second hour from Correctional Service and the Parole Board met with the community a couple of weeks ago and can speak on those specific items. I just didn't want to miss the fact that you raised that tragedy.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I have two follow-up questions.

First off, the Auditor General indicated that $45 million will be left unallocated at the same time communities need those resources by the end of this fiscal year. What steps are you taking to make sure that $45 million is put out?

Second, one of the things indicated by the Auditor General and indigenous organizations is that there is no culturally appropriate, culturally specific training for officers in those communities. We're talking about indigenous communities that often have a profound distrust of policing, given the police's role in dragging indigenous kids off to residential schools and those horrific conditions.

What are the steps you are going to take to ensure there is culturally appropriate, culturally specific training for those officers, and how do you ensure the $45 million is spent?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, those are two very important questions from Mr. Julian. I have confidence that the RCMP have understood and share exactly that concern around appropriate cultural sensitivity training and understanding of that history that Mr. Julian referred to.

I've had conversations with the commissioner, and he can also elaborate perhaps at a different moment on the work they have done and the funding and investments we have made in partnership with the management of the RCMP to correct this very understandable concern that Mr. Julian raised. It is improving. There is still more work to do, and the leadership of the RCMP is committed to doing that work.

With respect to the lapsed money, I was very surprised in my conversation with the Auditor General when I was briefed on her report. There is such a need to invest in this space, including with provinces and territories, as I said, but it doesn't absolve the Government of Canada of its responsibility to do the right thing. The idea that this money would lapse or not be allocated is understandably something that was surprising and concerning to me. Our associate deputy minister has assured me that those circumstances won't repeat themselves in terms of arriving at agreements with provinces and territories.

Again, it sounds like I'm sort of avoiding the question by talking about provinces and territories, but the constitutional requirement to deliver these services under provincial legislation means that simply allocating money that's outside of an agreement with a province and territory doesn't work. Some provinces are better at this than others, some respond more quickly and some have capacity challenges. It doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to do more and not see that funding lapse. I totally share that view.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Julian.

We're moving into the second round now.

Mr. Caputo, you have five minutes, please.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I will address all of my questions directly to the witnesses through you.

Thank you to all the witnesses, and thank you, Minister, for being here.

Commissioner Kelly, can you please confirm that disgraced former colonel Russell Williams is also at La Macaza, which houses Paul Bernardo and Luka Magnotta?