Public Safety Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank both associations for being here today. I think your testimony is going to be very valuable for our final report.

Mr. Kingston, I will turn to you. In the first hour of today's meeting, I was asking the Ontario Provincial Police, Detective Inspector Wade, about the communication link among police, insurers and car manufacturers. When police recover a stolen vehicle, their investigation will almost always show how the vehicle was stolen, etc. They made mention of the fact that they do recover fobs that were programmed to allow for easy access.

I guess now I want to turn it to the opposite end of the spectrum. How does your association view those reports? I totally get your point. This is like an evolutionary arms race. Every time you come up with a new technology, thieves, of course, are going to try to overcome it.

Very broadly speaking for this committee's benefit, how do those police reports and aggregate data make their way back to you, and how is your association trying to learn from them and improve?

[Brian Kingston]

That's an excellent question. There's a constant engagement directly between the manufacturers and law enforcement agencies. They have teams that, when they do recover a vehicle, will investigate how it was stolen, what technology was used and what systems were perhaps overcome. That information is shared with manufacturers so that, as they investigate new ways to implement improvements to vehicles, they have that data and can understand and evolve the system.

It's a constant discussion between law enforcement and auto manufacturers, and they all have dedicated teams that focus on this specifically.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You made mention of Criminal Code changes. Again, in the first hour, I was explaining to police our conundrum as policy-makers. I have been a member of Parliament for eight and a half years. I have had previous roles on the standing committee on justice. I have taken those deep dives into the Criminal Code. If a judge wants to, there are numerous sections I could cite that they could make use of right now to make a sentence high enough that we think they would be a deterrent.

With that in mind, do you think that Crown prosecutors need to be pushing ahead with a firmer sentence by asking the judge to be a bit more harsh? This is the conundrum we find ourselves in as policy-makers. We want to be effective, but I don't think that just focusing on the Criminal Code is going to do the job here.

[Brian Kingston]

Yes, I'll admit that I'm getting out of my depth when I get into the Criminal Code and the role of the judge and prosecution, but yes, I think it's both. I think that strengthening the Criminal Code sends a signal that there are very clear and punitive penalties to people who choose to engage in frequent car theft.

However, I also take your point and I think it's accurate that there could be longer sentences given, and we're not seeing that. I can't explain the reason for that, but we continue to hear examples of people who have been caught stealing multiple vehicles and are somehow getting very short sentences. I don't understand why that's happening, but it can't continue to happen if this is going to be addressed.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, I agree with you that the sentences are on the books. It's just a question as to why they're not being handed down, so thank you for that. I appreciate that.

Mr. Volpe, I'd like to turn to you.

You had made mention of some of the technology that exists in terms of biometrics. I've lost my iPhone before and I have been able to use my computer to track down exactly where it was located. Every time I log on to my iPhone, facial recognition is used. We use facial recognition technology so that we can vote remotely, as members of Parliament.

You were talking about biometrics and how technology can be inserted into the seat cushion to determine the driver's weight. I am pretty sure technology could be used to discern whether a car is going through different driving habits, maybe going in a different route from what it's used to.

If this technology already exists in helping us recover our iPhones or to use them every day, is this the next step, then, that needs to be put into cars more often? I'm just wondering if you could expand a little bit on that.

[Flavio Volpe]

Sure, that technology is available and in many cases is deployed by automakers around the world, and it is increasingly demanded by automakers in their relationship with law enforcement where they're sharing data. Those automakers then share that data, and that drives the R and D and procurement with suppliers.

Comparing your phone to a vehicle, where the differences come in is that your phone is usually a personal item tied to you, and every time you do a software update or an app, there are questions. You get a request of whether you'll allow it to track you, etc.

A vehicle is used by multiple people, multiple drivers, passengers who aren't involved in an ownership relationship there. I think the question of whether the technology exists is settled—it's there, it can be deployed. It's a question of whether as a society we are prepared—owners are prepared, passengers are prepared—to give permissions that infringe on a lot of different things in the umbrella of privacy in exchange for a more secure relationship with your car, your friend's car, a car you're in, a ride-share or a car that you're frankly just walking beside. Sensors are not just internal, they're also external.

It's a wider societal conversation that's happening in a different silo from the conversation we're having about theft security on most vehicles.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Mr. Hoback, please.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank both these witnesses for being here today, but I also want to thank them for their work back in 2021 on Build Back Better, fighting that legislation in the U.S. to make sure we still have an auto sector here in Canada worth talking about.

If it weren't for their hard work...and I know you were a key member, Mr. Volpe, in making sure the government was aware of what was actually going on down there.

I know you did a lot of work in Washington, too, Mr. Kingston, so I just want to make sure you get patted on the back and get the credit you deserve.

Mr. Kingston, you talked about new technology. I bought a new truck about a year ago. About six months later I went into Saskatoon and I thought I'd start my new truck in the parking lot so it would be nice and warm when I got into it. On my app it said that it had a couple of flat tires; that sucked, it was a new truck. I went out to the parking lot to see the new truck, and the tires were good, but it had not started. What in the world was going on? I looked on the app and it was my old truck in Redwood Falls, Minnesota, that had just started up and had two flat tires.

That's an example of how technology really can't be trusted necessarily, no matter how good it is, to alleviate that, and you've talked about this many times. Maybe AI will improve that. There are always new technologies.

It comes back to what is happening in regard to Canada being the place where these thefts are happening versus other jurisdictions around the world, and it has to come back to the legal system.

We've heard Alistair talk about that capacity in the legal system, but it seems like the judges don't want to exercise their ability to actually put in harsher sentences, especially with repeat offenders. I don't think anybody wants to go after somebody who just went out for a joyride and they're 16 years old—we don't want to destroy their lives over that—but with somebody who is part of a gang that's been doing this over and over again, you definitely want to make sure they don't do it again.

Do you see that happening here in Canada, in different areas of jurisdiction, where maybe one area is more severe and the judge is actually clamping down on this versus other areas of Canada?

[Brian Kingston]

No, we don't see any differentiation in jurisdictions in Canada with regard to sentencing.

What we're seeing right now is that the main hotbed for this activity is really tied to the location of the port where these vehicles can be exported, so that's where most of the crime is occurring. However, in terms of sentencing, I haven't seen any evidence of longer sentences or terms handed out in different parts of the country.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

That's a good point because the CBSA just said today that it didn't really matter now, that it could go to Montreal or Vancouver, that it's the same criminals stealing the car, so the car still comes out of Toronto or Ontario.

Have you heard any reasoning on why we're not seeing harsher sentences being delivered to these repeat offenders?

[Brian Kingston]

It's not clear to me. I think there are two components. I think the Criminal Code needs to be strengthened so that there are clear mandatory sentences for repeat offenders so that it is known that the sentencing judge will implement that mandatory minimum.

With respect to an actual judge sentencing and whether or not that judge has the ability to provide longer terms, I'm not sure. I don't know why that wouldn't be the case, particularly with repeat offenders. I do think that is part of it, but I think the changes to the Criminal Code are particularly important.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

[Inaudible—Editor] reward for the little risk they face. Is that fair to say?

[Brian Kingston]

That's it. What we're seeing, given that the Canadian theft rate is so much higher than that of the U.S., is that it's clear that the risk-reward equation, if you will, is out of whack in this country. That's why Canada is being targeted.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

So, it's not because we have better port infrastructure or better rail infrastructure; it's because we lack a legal system.

[Brian Kingston]

That is clearly one of the reasons—and the ability to get the vehicles out of market.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Volpe, I know you do a lot of parts manufacturing and that you supply to different vehicle manufacturers. Isn't there something we can do on the technology side? Can't we put a geolocator on so that, if that vehicle ends up in Europe or northern Africa or a place like that, basically the engine blows, is just no longer functioning? Can't we be that harsh so that it takes away that incentive for organized crime to take these vehicles and get them offshore?

[Flavio Volpe]

First, let me say thank you on the Build Back Better.... I know you burned up the lines between Ottawa and Washington, D.C. The industry thanks you for your effort there as well.

Yes, that technology does exist, and it is installed in most, if not all, of the new vehicles. I'll just use the anecdote of the current vehicle that I'm trying to get tracked through law enforcement. Usually when you deal with the company that's tracking the vehicle, it's either the automaker or the automaker's third party partner. They are getting a sight-unseen call or communication from the owner. You do some verification, yes, but you have no way of knowing whether that person's intentions are as noble as they say: “By the way, I'm reporting my stolen car. Please go track it down.”

There's always a link between that company and law enforcement. They don't communicate back to the owner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Mr. Schiefke, you'll be our last one.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Kingston, you're referencing, in many of your remarks, that this is somewhat of a Canadian problem. Can you explain to the committee why it is that the United States, Britain and most of Europe have also seen significant spikes in car thefts if this is something that is solely a Canadian problem?

[Brian Kingston]

The divergence that I'm talking about began in 2021 and continued through 2022, when we saw a significant divergence between Canadian theft rates and U.S. theft rates. The theft rate increased in Canada by 27% in 2022. In the U.S., it increased by 11%.

What we have seen recently, though, with regard to your point, is an increase in theft rates in other markets as well. Canada, in many ways, was the canary in the coal mine, and now you're seeing this activity shift to other markets.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thanks for confirming that.

This isn't a Canadian problem. This is something happening all around the world. I mentioned this in my previous remarks at a previous committee meeting. We're seeing a hundredfold increase in the United States, in Britain and in many countries in Europe.

I mentioned this also previously in another meeting. The companies you represent—Ford, GM and Stellantis—had profits last year of roughly $45 billion combined, which is $45 thousand million. The question that I had for the witnesses that day, which they were unable to answer—and this is a question I have for you—was this: How much of that is being spent to ensure that the second-largest expense that Canadians have is being protected from theft? How much is being spent? Last year, of that $45 billion, how much was spent in research and development to make cars harder to steal?

[Brian Kingston]

That would be a company-specific number that I don't have. I'm happy to look into it. Again, I just want to underline that there is no amount spent on technology—

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Kingston, that was the question I had. If you can't answer that question, my second question for you is this. Appearing before this committee, it would be reasonable to think that questions would be: What are the auto manufacturers doing? How much are they spending on making their cars harder to steal? The fact that you don't have a number to provide to this committee so that we can verify whether or not the auto manufacturers are indeed doing their part to counter this massive increase of thefts of the second-largest investment that Canadians make is simply unacceptable.

The average car in Canada has gone up in cost by 30% since 2019. The average cost is now $45,000. Why are they easier to steal now, when they cost 30% more and when they have more technology in them, than they did previously?

[Brian Kingston]

Respectfully, I did provide you a list of all the measures that are being undertaken. We've also provided a comprehensive list to Transport Canada that outlines all the different vehicle security systems that have been put in place. While I can't give you a number, we have provided comprehensive information to the federal government on all the measures that are in place.

I also want to be clear that we can't make all this information public because that would be handing it over to the very groups using this so that they can find ways around these systems, so there is an element of this that needs to be kept secure.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Kingston, I completely understand that. The one thing I'm trying to figure out here is how much of the burden of this your three manufacturers, who made $45 billion in profits last year, are bearing so that less of the cost is passed along to consumers. Putting it in laymen's terms here, even though you submitted all those methods that have been put into place to make cars harder to steal, Mr. Shipley, in his line of questioning, had mentioned, I believe, a child or a young man, younger than the age of 15. The CBSA and the RCMP had referenced the fact that we now have 15- to 20-year-olds who are able to steal these vehicles. How is it that, with a $45,000 price tag, with record profits being made by your three manufacturers—$45 billion—with all the technology you're putting in, a 15-year-old can steal your vehicles with something they bought on Amazon?