Public Safety Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is that a number you think has increased over the past few years, or is that an average number that you would expect is a normal number?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

We don't have the data to back it up, but I do believe it's increasing.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It's an increasing number.

We do know that with the recent bail changes in 2019, in Bill C-75—which the Liberals brought in—a number of bail provisions were changed, which puts the onus on judges and police officers to release suspects.

Have you seen an impact from that change in 2019 with an increase in people being let out on bail?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

Again, I wish I had the data and the specific information to be able to answer that question confidently, but I do believe that we've seen an increase.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

What are some of the sentences that you're seeing being handed out to the people you are catching?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

I think we referred to some stats. Sixty-eight percent are sentenced to under six months, and fewer than 1% are sentenced to more than two years.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I've read that in many of these cases, people are caught with firearms or they're caught in possession of drugs. Is that what you're finding in some of these cases when you're catching people?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

Every case is different. Obviously when there are aggravating factors and additional charges, windfall evidence, firearms or other associated offences, I would like to think that the sentences reflect that, and I'm sure they do.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Are you seeing cases where people are getting six months or under two years when they're also caught with firearms or with drugs?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

I don't have the data for that. I would imagine we're getting stronger sentences if there are firearms involved. I would certainly hope so.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

How much money does the average auto thief make per stolen vehicle?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

It's hard to quantify it exactly. There are multiple stages and layers in the auto theft process. There are spotters; they sometimes make a couple hundred dollars just to identify a vehicle in a driveway, which will later be stolen by a thief. That thief may make somewhere between several hundred dollars to a couple thousand dollars to steal it. Then there are runners—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is that one per night for the thief, or are they doing multiples per night usually?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

Again, I don't really have the data to support that, but we'll see crews—these are auto theft crews—working together, and they'll steal multiple vehicles in one night.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay.

When we're seeing these sentences, do you think that these six-month sentences or these under two-year sentences are a deterrent for these criminals, or do you think they feel that there is such a low likelihood of getting caught, and the payday is so high—as you said, it could be several thousand dollars a night—that it's not really a huge risk for them or something that they really consider when they're stealing these vehicles?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

I'd like to think that there is a deterrent with the sentences, and there should be a deterrent. That should be one part of it.

It's also providing justice and a sense of safety for the public, so it's a combination of all of those factors.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You're aware of Jordan's principle in sentencing, which came out from the Supreme Court in 2016.

Do you think Crown prosecutors view these car thefts as just property crimes, and place less importance on them than they do on more violent crimes?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

I wouldn't say that. Again, I can only speak for Ontario, but I think the establishment of the major auto theft prosecution response team is going to counter a lot of those issues, if that is the case.

However, we work very well with all of our partners at the Ministry of the Attorney General in putting cases before the court and prosecuting them.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I think you'll agree that there are some horrendous cases—sexual assault, sexual harassment of children, murders. With so many violent cases, there are people who are being let out because of Jordan's principle, because their cases are taking too long. I think Crown prosecutors are being put in a very difficult position where they have to choose between getting time for an assault case, a murder case or a sexual assault case, and booking time for vehicle cases.

Do you think they're having to make a compromise and give plea deals or lesser sentences in order to speed up convictions on vehicle thefts and in order to get these more violent cases brought up so that they don't get taken out by Jordan's principle? Is that something you're seeing on the front lines?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

I can't say that's something I am seeing.

What I can say is that Jordan's principle is something we're working with. Our police officers are adapting and changing the way we investigate crimes and conduct disclosure. We are working with the Crown prosecutors in that manner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Now we're moving on to Mr. Gaheer, please, for five minutes.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before the committee.

First, Mr. Wade, could you please provide data about more crimes being committed by those on parole, and whether it's on the rise or not? We would like to see the data; otherwise, it's just anecdotal.

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

I can obtain specific data, if that's what you're looking for. What I can speak to is the provincial carjacking task force. Those are the data and the stats that I have. Out of 124 arrests, 55 of those subjects were out on bail when arrested.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

In the grand scheme of this country, I think that's a pretty small sample size, isn't it?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

That's a small sample size, yes. It's just what I can refer to on the carjacking issue.