Public Safety Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you.

Before I get into my questioning with Mr. McCrorie, I do want to mention a point that Mr. Lloyd brought up.

Study after study shows that the deterrence of the sentence on the likelihood of a crime being committed is actually pretty low. Study after study has shown that. I studied that throughout law school: When a criminal commits a crime, they're not really thinking about, “Oh, this is going to be a three-year crime” versus “This is going to be a five-year crime”. The more likely question is, “What will I do”? What's actually more likely to sway their intention to commit that criminal activity is the likelihood of being caught.

If the rate at which crimes are being solved is falling, that's actually going to spur more criminal activity, because the criminal knows they can get away with it.

Mr. Wade, wouldn't you agree that the likelihood of a crime being solved is more likely to deter criminal activity than the sentence?

[Det-Insp Scott Wade]

It is a good question.

I believe they're of equal importance. The ability to solve crimes and investigate crimes is equally as important as the ultimate sentencing in the court process.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

It's just that the studies I've looked at have shown that the former is more likely to have an impact on the psychology of the criminal, or the potential criminal, than the latter.

I'll get into my questioning with Mr. McCrorie.

The example I want to bring up is one we've seen the Leader of the Opposition constantly bring up. That is the example of an individual who had their car stolen, and had an AirTag that traced the car to the Port of Montreal. They informed local law enforcement, and according to this story, the local law enforcement then indicated that, “Hey, we can't actually do anything now. It's the CBSA that takes over”, and this individual watched their car sail off into the sunset.

Could you comment on that? Is that a very likely scenario? If I'm the individual who has had my car stolen, and I used an AirTag to trace it to the port, what are my options?

[Aaron McCrorie]

I think it is a plausible scenario, and we've seen press reports that refer to it. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for somebody to experience that. I think it speaks to the collaboration that's taking place between law enforcement partners and the CBSA. We're developing what we call our “request to locate” protocol. The very idea behind it is to provide Canadians with guidance: If you do have a tracking device, such as an AirTag, on your vehicle, what do you need to do to engage law enforcement to retrieve your vehicle? It will always be focused, first and foremost, on engaging your police of local jurisdiction, but there will be an element in there for the CBSA to play a role when and if we can.

If I'm watching my car go from Toronto, via the Toronto rail yards, to Winnipeg, and then to Vancouver, there are many points of intervention along the way. I think it speaks to the opportunities for police and the CBSA to collaborate along that journey to stop the vehicle from leaving the country. If it does get to a port, then we'll use our authority and our tools to try and recover that vehicle.

There are challenges. For example, that won't be the only AirTag in a container at a port, and we're looking at how we can leverage technology to zero in on where that might be. We're very concerned about that, and we are taking steps to address it, again, in collaboration with our policing partners.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

What does that collaboration look like currently? For example, I've lost my car, but I have an AirTag and I've traced it. I've informed local law enforcement, and it's going to be loaded onto a ship tomorrow morning. What's going to happen? What's the process?

[Aaron McCrorie]

Hopefully, you're not engaging us by the time it has gotten to the port. What we would ask people to do is to contact their local law enforcement, who can intervene more rapidly in the locale where it is. This is a hypothetical scenario, but if it is then bound for a rail yard in the Toronto area, and it's brought to our attention that it's in a container we think is bound for export, we can use our authority to go into the rail yard, open the container and retrieve the vehicle, same if it gets to the port.

There are logistical challenges. I don't want to over-promise in terms of what can be done and how it can be done. If you go to the Port of Montreal, you'll see stacks of hundreds and hundreds of containers. Finding the specific container with the AirTag in that stack is going to be daunting. That's why we think the sooner we can intervene in that process, the better.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Madame Michaud, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McCrorie, the Montreal Port Authority says it's not allowed to open containers unless it's to save someone's life or prevent an environmental disaster. More than 800 police officers have access cards allowing them to enter the Port of Montreal, but if they want to open containers, they need a warrant, as I said. Only border services officers can search containers without a warrant. Is that correct?

[Aaron McCrorie]

In the context of enforcing the Customs Act, we have an ability to open containers without a warrant.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Following up on that, the national president of the Customs and Immigration Union, Mark Weber, appeared before this committee. He told us there were only eight customs officers at the Port of Montreal, where there's a dire labour shortage. The agency seems to be under-resourced in general. Is that the case? What is the Canada Border Services Agency doing to solve the problem?

[Aaron McCrorie]

I apologize. I don't have the exact number of border services officers that we have at the Port of Montreal, but it's more than eight.

Our mandate, both in terms of looking at traffic coming in, whether it's people or goods, or traffic leaving in terms of exports, is to always take a risk-based approach. We can't check every person. We can't check every container. We can't check every ship or every truck. However, by taking a risk-based approach, we're making effective use of the resources that have been allocated to us by the people of Canada.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

No offence, but why don't you have that information? Can you send it to the committee after your testimony? I think that's quite important. Eight is the number we've been seeing a lot in the media. That's the number the union president gave us. If you have another number, though, I'd be happy to hear it.

I'm also wondering about the enforcement of the act. We know that imports get a lot more attention than exports because we think things aren't our problem any more once they leave the country. Shouldn't we be paying special attention to exports given that auto theft is such a big problem? I would imagine the same goes for drugs and firearms.

As lawmakers, can we give customs officers better tools to do their job, and do you think we should take a closer look at exports?

[Aaron McCrorie]

First of all, I'd like to apologize for not having the number, and I commit to providing you that number.

Yes. Historically, our primary focus has been on threats coming into the country, such as drugs and illegal firearms, but we do not ignore exports. We've had results in terms of seizing stolen vehicles over the last 10 years, for example. We seized almost 950 in the first three months of this year, and we're making a lot of progress.

It's not just about stolen vehicles. We also have a mandate to enforce sanctions and controlled goods, so the support of economic measures against Russia, for example, in the context of the war.

We also look at exports, but it's a question of balancing our priorities, and where the risks are. Stopping fentanyl from coming into the country is equally important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. MacGregor, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to use my two and a half minutes to quickly move a motion. It reads:

That the forest/wildland firefighters should be included under the firefighter category in the national occupational classification and that this be reported to the House.

I'm not sure whether proper notice was given of this motion by Mr. Julian, but I believe all committee members received a letter from the president of the National Union of Public and General Employees, outlining the expectation that we support this motion.

Given the growing devastation of wildfires in Canada, and the fact that the exclusion from the NOC of wildfire fighters has pretty negative consequences for those people, I'm hoping that, even though proper notice may not have been given, enough committee members around this table understand what we're trying to do as a committee, and that we can find our way to supporting this motion, and reporting it back to the House.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Ms. O'Connell, please go ahead.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thanks. We support the intention of this motion, but we have a couple of minor technical amendments.

It would read, “That, in the opinion of the committee,” striking out “the”, “forest/wildland firefighters should be included under the firefighter category in the national occupational classification and that”—this is the new part—“pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.” Just delete the part after that to make it consistent with committee motions.

We're supportive if these amendments are accepted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Ms. Michaud, go ahead, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was going to speak to the motion, but I can take this opportunity to comment on the amendment, since I am in favour of both the amendment and the motion. The Bloc Québécois believes it's extremely important to recognize forest firefighters as equal to regular firefighters with respect to their working conditions, particularly at a time when forest fires are happening so often across the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, go ahead, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I just want a quick clarification.

I think those amendments are definitely in order, but I just want to make sure that the amendment will make sure that it is reported to the House. We're expecting you, Chair, to rise in the House and we are then going to get a government response.

Is that how it reads, Ms. O'Connell?

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

The way I have it is just, “Pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.”

Maybe the clerk can provide clarity. I don't think there's an issue for us in terms of it being reported to the House. We just wanted to make sure that the government is given a chance to respond.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I want to say at the outset that Conservatives are fully in support of this motion.

However, I do have some concerns because under the amendments, under Standing Order 109, the government's only required to provide a comprehensive response once 120 days are hit. Fire season, which is coming upon us very quickly, is likely to be over by then. I think it would undermine the positive momentum of bringing this motion forward and discussing this very important issue if we were to accept an amendment that allowed the government to basically not present anything to the House for 120 days.

I think we would like to see something come much quicker out of this, so that changes can be implemented as quickly as possible, if they're found to be warranted, for the support of our hard-working forest and wildland firefighters.