Evidence of meeting #108 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was privacy.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
An answer would be good, because, as I said, I'd like to know.
Senator, Quebec, ISG
I think I have not researched that part.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Look at that. I've thrown you right for a loop, so there you go. That's why we're here.
Yes, I would like to know the names of a couple of companies and what industries they're currently doing age verification for.
One of the other studies we recently did in here was about cybersecurity. It was astounding to hear about some of the companies, governments and big organizations that have been hacked. A lot of private information has been taken or ransomed.
Are you concerned about that at all, with this? We heard of one Canadian company. I'm sure there are others, hopefully. We don't know the size of them. We don't know who they're doing.... Do you have any concerns about security and cybersecurity?
Senator, Quebec, ISG
I think we're all concerned. We have companies like Desjardins in Quebec, where we put our money and which have those types of problems. It can obviously happen everywhere.
However, I am wondering why it would be more of a risk with pornography than with banking and all kinds of other sectors. Once you start to be on the web, transmit information on the web and do banking on the web, all those things exist. However, as I said on this question, Germany has the longest experience, but there have not been les fuites de données or big scandals on that side with data privacy.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Madame.
Before I carry on, feel free, obviously, to submit any further information you may wish to the committee.
Senator, Quebec, ISG
Yes, I will, because I am excited to answer a good question.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
It will be distributed.
We'll go now to Mr. Bittle for the hammer.
You have five more minutes.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Before I ask my question, Senator, I want to say that I think we all appreciate the goal you're trying to accomplish. I just have many concerns about how we're attempting to accomplish this.
I'll give you an example.
One of my favourite shows of all time is Game of Thrones. I love that show. I became obsessed with it and watched it throughout. I'm watching the spinoffs. It's on a Canadian provider—Crave. It would be covered by this legislation, as it's defined. I have staff who I know are fans of Bridgerton on Netflix, which is another Internet service provider that provides what is defined as “sexually explicit content”.
I know you're trying to prevent children from seeing pornography, but you didn't define “pornography” in your legislation. You defined “sexually explicit material”. Things like the shows I mentioned, and even Academy Award-winning movies, such as Schindler's List, The English Patient, Shakespeare in Love, Gladiator, Crash, 12 Years a Slave, The Shape of Water, Green Book and Parasite, based on the definition in the Criminal Code, would all be covered.
My question to you is this: Why use this overly broad definition? Why didn't you come up with a stronger, stricter definition of “pornography”, rather than using the “sexually explicit” definition in the Criminal Code?
Senator, Quebec, ISG
Mr. Bittle, I'll respond in French, if you don't mind.
First, I completely disagree with your premise, since neither Game of Thrones nor Bridgerton—which I watch religiously—contain pornographic or sexually explicit material—
Senator, Quebec, ISG
—as defined in the Criminal Code. I don't think you're referring to the definition of “sexually explicit material” as set out in the Criminal Code.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I'm sorry to interrupt you there, Senator. I don't have much time. I'm looking right at the definition now—subsection 171.1(5)—and this is for “sexually explicit material”. It says:
the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a person's genital organs or anal region or, if the person is female, her breasts;
That is very broad when it comes to what Canadians see on television, which they access without a digital ID. You're proposing to change or alter that. I think Canadians expect that when they go on to Netflix or Crave or platforms such as Amazon Prime that they're able to access these shows without a digital ID to do so.
There's an old Supreme Court decision in the United States about pornography—“I know it when I see it”. You're kind of making that position now and pointing us to this Criminal Code definition; but it is very broad, Senator, and it is going to capture so much more content than I know you don't intend to. However, this is the language of the legislation.
How can Canadians be assured that they won't be brought into this based on the wording of the legislation that I've just read—and I know you've been trying to read it to some of my other colleagues.
Senator, Quebec, ISG
Yes, because contrary to you, I don't think this is that broad. I believe that if you look at the jurisprudence on how those particular three words have been interpreted by courts.... You will see earlier that I quoted Professor Trudel, who was quoting the Sharpe decision.
Senator, Quebec, ISG
No, he's not a judge, but he's a legal expert.
You're right that we can always say there's a danger. However, what kind of definition would we suggest?
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Again, Senator, you're in a “we know when we see it” kind of item. I don't have much more time left. You've left this very vague for the agency that's going to police this.
Really, the only agency that exists, which the federal government has, is the CRTC. Is this whom you expect will be policing this legislation?
Senator, Quebec, ISG
I did not include it, because I didn't want to have to weigh in on that. I think those decisions—
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
However, that's the most likely agency to deal with it, yes or no?
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
It will be the CRTC. They are the most likely competent agency to deal with this, basically.
Senator, Quebec, ISG
It has remained undefined, because, as you know, your own government these days is trying to have a commission, an ombudsman, and all of those things.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
However, you'll agree with me that it's most likely the CRTC. You don't want it in there, because it wouldn't be popular, but you'll agree with me that the CRTC is the most likely agency to deal with this.