Public Safety Committee on March 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. What a delight it is to be back in Ottawa and in this room to see all of these smiling faces. I'm thrilled that we're able to be together in person—some of us, anyway—and virtually with all of those who are calling in from various places across the country.

Welcome to meeting number 11 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely, using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I would remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk will advise the chair on whose hands are up to the best of his ability, and we will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House of Commons on Tuesday, December 7, 2021, and the motion adopted on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, the committee is resuming its study of gun control, illegal arms trafficking and the increase in gun crimes committed by members of street gangs.

With us today, live and in person, we have the Honourable Marco Mendicino, Minister of Public Safety. Also very much alive, but not in person, from the Canada Border Services Agency, we have John Ossowski, president, and Scott Harris, vice-president of the intelligence and enforcement branch. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Talal Dakalbab, assistant deputy minister of community safety and countering crime. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Brenda Lucki, commissioner, and Stephen White, deputy commissioner of specialized policing services.

Colleagues, so you know what we're going to do with the time allocation, when you've got 30 seconds, left I will raise this card. For anybody who can't see it, I will whisper “30 seconds”. I will be as gentle as I can be and as respectful as I should be about time allocation.

Welcome to all.

I now invite Minister Marco Mendicino to make an opening statement. It's over to you, Minister.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Indeed, it is good to be appearing before this committee in person.

I want to start by acknowledging that those of us on the Hill are gathered on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

Thank you for inviting me here today.

Colleagues, I've been paying close attention to the testimony presented to this committee over the past few months. You have heard compelling and enlightening testimony, particularly with regard to remarkable local initiatives that play a significant role.

You heard about OPK, the Winnipeg‑based social service organization. You heard that indigenous men and women have been able to leave gang life as a result of the program's outreach and their access to resources and community connections.

You heard about the Bear Clan Patrol, which is also located in Winnipeg and which provides security for the indigenous community and helps to keep the peace in a supportive manner.

You heard about STR8 UP, an organization that serves Saskatoon's at‑risk indigenous community, works with former gang members and their families, and supports individuals embarking on a healthier path.

The figures don't lie. As a result of these types of programs, thousands of hours a year of personal skills development and job training have helped promote personal growth, a sense of hope and an alternative to gang life.

At the provincial level, you heard about the work done by British Columbia and the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit. This unit is paired with a program to end gang life. The goal is to provide support to gang members to help them leave the lifestyle.

You heard about initiatives in Quebec that promote strong action through projects such as Operation Centaur. In that province, the project is helping to provide more police officers, medical examiners and correctional officers to support responses and information sharing. It's also bringing law enforcement agencies together to conduct investigations, prevent gun violence and reduce smuggling.

Mr. Chair, I warmly welcome the attention you and this committee have been paying to initiatives that have been put into place across the country. I look forward to discussing them, and much more, with all partners at the upcoming engagements that we have across the country.

Colleagues, along with the positive signs of progress, you've also heard first-hand accounts of the shared challenges we all face in tackling gun violence. I point to the testimony of Vancouver Police Department Staff Sergeant Michael Rowe. He pointed to the challenge of ghost guns, or firearms produced in part by 3D printing. They are manufactured or assembled from components without a serial number or other markings, making them difficult to detect by conventional systems and difficult to trace. It's a reminder that we're all operating in an evolving and complex environment. It's a reminder that through times of change, we all need to work closely together at every level and in every community.

At my last appearance, I provided an overview of how the federal government is playing a leadership role to do just that. I noted that we've introduced the strongest measures to fight gun violence our country has ever seen. I highlighted how we focused on controlling the use and possessions of firearms. For example, through measures now in place allowing for lifetime background checks, they include criteria that must be considered in deciding whether to grant a firearms licence. I pointed out the ways in which we're limiting access to firearms deemed inappropriate, for example, our ban of over 1,500 models and variants of assault-style firearms with a buyback regime on the way. I talked about how we're tackling illegal firearms, for example, by committing to increase the maximum penalty for firearms trafficking, smuggling, and related offences from 10 to 14 years imprisonment. I spoke about our efforts to reduce gang membership and violence. Those prevention efforts are essential, because the fight involves more than just enforcement.

As my colleague, Minister Blair, has often said, “You can't arrest your way out of the problems on our city streets.” That's why, to date, we've delivered more than $115 million to the provinces and territories to support prevention, intervention, and the suppression and enforcement activities under the gun and gang violence action fund since 2018. I'll add that we've also allocated $250 million over five years directly to municipalities and indigenous communities that have a demonstrated history of gun and gang-related harm, who will receive funding to bolster gang prevention and intervention programming.

I also talked about how enforcement investments to deter smuggling and trafficking are making a difference. As members know, the CBSA seizes large quantities of firearms every year from United States citizens, mostly from non-compliant travellers attempting to retain their personal firearms while travelling.

Firearms tracing is also a key tool in determining the sources of and diversion routes for illegal firearms. Approximately 21,000 firearms are seized annually by law enforcement. Our $125 million in support for the RCMP and CBSA to stop illegal guns at their source and to detect and disrupt gun smuggling is already paying dividends, with over 1,000 firearms seized at the border last year.

I also highlighted that we have invested an additional $312 million over five years to enhance our capacity to better identify, disrupt and prevent firearms from entering the illicit market. That includes $15 million to increase the RCMP's capacity to trace firearms and over $40 million for anti-smuggling activities, which includes building a new Canadian criminal intelligence system that will help law enforcement to target and disrupt criminal activity.

We've seen concrete evidence of the difference these investments are making, complementing the testimony you've heard. Just look at the results of the CBSA's investigation into 3D printed firearms last year. It showed that the work of the CBSA and RCMP, after detecting and intercepting undeclared firearms parts in Mississauga, led to seizures, warrants and arrests through strong action at the border and collaboration with many partners.

Mr. Chair, at the same time, I acknowledge there is more work to be done. I want to reinforce the government's commitment to collaborate with the provinces who want to take action in banning handguns, an issue I discussed with my provincial and territorial colleagues last week at our federal, provincial and territorial conference.

While this committee studies the issue of gun control, illegal arms trafficking and the increase in gun crimes committed by members of street gangs, I look forward to your consideration and debate on new firearms legislation that we will table soon.

I want to close by again thanking all of the members of this committee for their thoughtful work, and I look forward to taking your questions and comments.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Minister, and for being generous with your time with us.

Leading off the first round, in a six-minute slot, will be Mr. Lloyd.

We'll go over to you, Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming, Minister.

I appreciate all the times you have come before our committee and that you seem to have watched the testimony we're having at committee.

I agree with you that it has been compelling testimony, and some of the testimony you mentioned today has been strong. However, you have been cherry-picking the testimony. We have seen overwhelming testimony from law enforcement and community activist groups, which are doing the great work in the communities you talked about, and a number of victims rights groups, who said that your government's proposed mandatory gun buyback from law-abiding firearms owners is the least effective and most expensive policy you can take.

What do you say to that, Minister?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The advice we get from law enforcement is important. For example, as I mentioned the last time I was here, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police supported our ban on assault-style firearms. We're going to listen to victims groups as well.

I think there is an important distinction between the strategy we have put into place by introducing stronger gun controls, whether they be with regard to the AR-15 and assault-style weapons, or with regard to the additional steps we want to take on handguns. The extension of introducing a ban would be to also have a buyback program put into place.

The reason for that, Mr. Lloyd, is that we are concerned that those guns, which were once legal but are now deemed illegal, could be stolen and be used to hurt and kill people. We have seen that in some recent shooting tragedies, including in my hometown of Toronto. That's why we propose to introduce the buyback program.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Minister, we live in economic scarcity. We have to use taxpayer dollars in the best possible way. We have seen statistics from law enforcement and community groups that have overwhelmingly shown that legally owned firearms are not winding up in the hands of criminals—certainly, there are a few exceptions—and that those guns are ones that are transported and smuggled over the border.

You posted on Twitter today about a gun bust of two rifles and four handguns. In your own words today, most of the guns that are being intercepted by CBSA are from “non-compliant travellers”, not from organized crime smuggling operations. We know that is the main source for guns getting into the hands of criminals.

Minister, why are you paying attention to guns seized from American travellers, when you're missing the real issue, which is the thousands of handguns that are being brought over the border from the United States by organized crime?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, we have an obligation. The CBSA discharges its responsibilities to ensure that no one who is not permitted to bring firearms into the country is able to do so, and that is a matter of public safety. I think you would agree with that, Mr. Lloyd.

Secondly, I would point out that we have made significant investments to ensure that organized crime is interdicted at the border. I would point out that, last year, CBSA and RCMP carried out a number of operations that led to a record number of arrests and seized over 1,000 firearms, which could have made their way into our streets and our communities with deadly consequences.

My point to you, Mr. Lloyd, is that we're able to do both. We're able to interdict at the border and official ports of entry where people are not able to lawfully bring in their firearms, but we're also able to attack organized crime to ensure we are maintaining public safety by taking aggressive law enforcement action at our borders.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Minister, while I applaud the work of CBSA in interdicting illegal firearms from non-compliant travellers and from organized crime, clearly it's not enough. We are still seeing many firearms brought to Canada that are being smuggled and we're seeing the government pursue a course of action to seize the firearms of law-abiding firearms owners, spending upwards of a billion dollars or more in this effort. We're seeing, as you said, $40 million for the border.

Why is this government spending a billion dollars on a gun buyback that law enforcement and community groups are saying will not work, instead of spending more money on getting youth out of crime, disrupting organized crime and stopping the flow of illegal guns at the border?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Lloyd, the government is committed to doing more, which is why we increased the amount of funds and resources we have invested in our CBSA and our RCMP. We will continue to take the steps that are necessary to give them all of the personnel they need, all of the equipment they need, the technology they need.

We're also leveraging partnerships with our American counterparts. There is a cross-border crime forum, where I hope to be engaging with my counterpart, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in the very short term.

It is a full court press—that is my response to you—when it comes to action at the border. However, we also have to be sure that we are investing in preventative strategies. I'm sure I will have an opportunity to expand on that as well.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

One thing that's actually been very clear from law enforcement and from community groups during this committee study is that a certain amount of time is needed in order for rehabilitation to work in the corrections system. By your government reducing mandatory minimums for gun offences and other violent offences, we could be seeing these criminals spend less time in prison, which has been shown to reduce rehabilitation rates. What do you have to say about that?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Well, Mr. Lloyd, as you know, I spent over a decade on the front lines of the criminal justice system and had a very unique and informed perspective on how mandatory minimums work and how they don't work. Our government believes in restoring the judicial independence in our courts, which was deteriorated the last time the Conservatives had the reins of government.

We also acknowledge that where you have hardened organized crime, where they are participating in the illegal trafficking of guns for the purposes of visiting devastating consequences in our community, there needs to be an appropriate sentencing regime. That is why we are going to be increasing maximum penalties for those serious firearms-related offences from 10 to 14 years. We trust that the courts will dispense those sentences, where appropriate, in accordance with the principles under the Criminal Code and the charter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Now we invite Mr. Noormohamed to take us through this next round of six minutes of questioning.

Mr. Noormohamed, the floor is yours, sir.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing, Minister, and thank you to the officials.

My first question is for you, Commissioner Lucki. We heard from the folks at the Vancouver Police Department on a wide range of issues. They raised a couple of points. The first point was that they would certainly support the outright ban of high-capacity magazines. They spoke of the need to regulate the replica and imitation of airsoft guns that aren't necessarily either firearms or replicas.

Would you agree with the VPD, Commissioner Lucki?

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you for that question. I would agree with anything that would reduce the guns used in crimes or any parts of the guns that would make a firearm more available. I would support anything that would reduce any type of crime with handguns.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Commissioner.

What about the components required to make guns at home? Would you be in favour of more regulation? Would you be in favour of trying to find ways to stop people from being able to make their own guns at home?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes. Absolutely. Obviously, those parts put together can create a handgun. Those parts are often imported in pieces that are made available to put guns together. Obviously, when they're used for criminal intent, we need to get those off the street.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thanks, Commissioner.

Well, Minister, you've now heard from the Commissioner of the RCMP. You've heard from the Vancouver Police Department. What say you about the need to support the ban on high-capacity guns, what say you about the need to regulate these things that don't fall into the category of firearms replicas, and what say you to the regulation of components that allow people to make their own guns at home?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed, for raising what is a very legitimate concern around the way in which guns, as well as the different components and elements of guns, can be used to, again, great devastating effect.

I want to assure you and all members of the committee that we plan to take very proactive legislative reform, going forward. I will say that the legislation we are actively contemplating does seek to address the very issue you have put your finger on. We need to be sure that we send a very clear message to those who would try to alter cartridges, and to those who would try to use different components to increase the deadly force that guns can carry out with devastating effect, that this is unlawful, and if they break the law there will be serious consequences.

We plan to give law enforcement all of the tools they need to ensure that those new laws are able to be enforced once they're on the books.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

You talked about the importance of being able to give everybody the tools they need. One of the challenges is that folks are fighting the tool of misinformation in all of this. There are folks who have advocated for setting up NRA-style gun lobbies in Canada and have been working hard for this. What contribution do those types of organizations have in making it harder for legislation to occur around issues like the ones we've just spoken about?

Then, Commissioner Lucki, perhaps you can weigh in on how much harder it makes your job in policing.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'll say briefly that I am concerned about the degree of disinformation that has made its way onto social media. I worry that, for very deliberate purposes, the efforts of the government and the way in which we are trying to communicate our strategy to reduce gun crimes are being distorted to raise fears among law-abiding citizens, for whom we have the greatest amount of respect. I've visited with hunters and those who participate in target shooting and, frankly, I applaud the measures they've put into place to use their firearms in a safe way. But what worries me is that the steps we're taking through legislation, the investments we're making in law enforcement at our borders and in our communities, and the strategies we're deploying to prevent gun crime from occurring and to minimize its consequences are being distorted in a way that is reckless and wrong. We need to be very clear-eyed about that.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Commissioner Lucki, what does that do to the work you need to do from a policing perspective?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

When we deal with misinformation and disinformation, first of all, it often causes other things to happen criminally. It causes people to be more defensive, creating an environment where people feel they have to protect themselves sometimes. The other thing it does is that it diverts the resources that we could be using on frontline enforcement to verify and follow up on the information, and correct and re-enter that information. Obviously, it does divert us from what we need to do.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I have one very short last question. What would you say to folks who believe that gun buybacks and further enforcement are an attack on innocent, law-abiding civilians?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would say that with our government, what Canadians will receive is responsible and strong gun control to protect our communities. Where we introduce buyback programs, it is an essential tool to get guns that have no business in our communities off our streets, because those guns only have one purpose, which is to kill people. That's our commitment, and we're going to make good on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Michaud, it's your turn. You have six minutes.

The floor is yours.