Public Safety Committee on March 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Only if you want it.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I have one more question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

If you want to give some time to the committee, I'll take it.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I have one more question for the RCMP.

Commissioner Lucki, you had mentioned the gang program out in B.C. that was very effective. Are there any proposals for getting these programs to the other provinces across Canada?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Obviously many of the areas that we police are very small, rural communities, so we try to centralize such programs into the bigger centres. Obviously if we could at every major city.... I know a lot of the municipal police agencies have that. Any time we get something like this gang intervention and exiting team, we share it with all the divisions across the country so they can, in fact.... Maybe they can't do a full-blown type program like what's being done in the Lower Mainland, but they can take parts of it and work with that inter-agency approach because it's much better when we work with the other agencies such as education, health, housing and social services. That inter-agency approach through a hub model is much more effective.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much, Commissioner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, you have two and a half minutes. The floor is yours. Please proceed.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the witnesses who aren't here in person today. I'd like to thank the RCMP commissioner, Ms. Lucki, who often takes the time to join us. We greatly appreciate it.

When we have the opportunity to meet with a minister, we like to ask questions.

Minister Mendicino, I want to discuss the handgun ban. During the election campaign, your government, in order to evade responsibility for having said that the provinces would be in charge of this issue, decided to provide one billion dollars to address it. Some suggested that perhaps the billion dollars was for the gun buyback program. The parliamentary budget officer said that the buyback program could cost as much as $756 million, which leaves little money for the handgun ban.

I'm curious about where that billion dollars is coming from. Can you break down the different budgets and tell us where the money will be allocated?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Michaud.

The government promised to invest one billion dollars in concrete measures to address the handgun issue. We'll use this funding in conjunction with the provinces.

We believe that federal funding could be used by the provinces and territories, and they would appreciate it. However, we'll need to discuss what programs and initiatives they'll develop to deal with handguns.

We must have a good faith dialogue with the provinces and territories to find concrete solutions that will work on the ground. We must be mindful of the perspectives of committees such as yours in order to develop a successful strategy.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I'll spend my remaining time asking you a question about—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Ms. Michaud, you have only 10 seconds left.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Minister Mendicino.

Maybe we'll have the chance to talk about figures again, because we didn't really get an answer to the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacGregor, go ahead. You have two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I just want to read you a quote from the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians. This is with respect to the proposed red flag law. It reads:

...placing the onus on a family member of a depressed person, a demented parent, or the perpetrator of domestic violence to go through the court system is a largely unworkable and unwelcome hindrance to getting guns temporarily out of the home of those in crisis.

They're not the only organization that has raised concerns with the proposed law and placing the onus on someone to go through a court system that can take its time. Would your government be open to changing the law so that there's an automatic prohibition and families are saved that process?

Also, because I want to front-load my questions to give you time to answer, my second question is on the national criminal intelligence system. We did have testimony from the RCMP, who said that the system is built on a platform that is decades old and no longer serves the very effective purposes of exchanging, developing and sharing intelligence between police services. What will your government be doing to address those gaps?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Well, if it's okay, Mr. MacGregor, I'll take your last question first because I think I can cut to the chase and then expand a little bit on your first question.

We'll continue to make the investments that are necessary to upgrade and modernize our technology platforms so that we're gathering the data we need in conjunction with law enforcement. I'm happy to chat offline with you more about that.

With regard to your first question and the concerns you expressed on behalf of emergency physicians, you are quite right that they are not the only group that has expressed a concern about the potential outing and vulnerabilities of victims and those who face gun violence and gender-based violence in general. I am very sensitive to that. We are going to work with you and with all parliamentarians to make sure we get our “red flag” and “yellow flag” regime right. I am concerned about ensuring that victims are empowered and can come forward when they choose to without compromising in any way their personal safety or integrity. We're going to work on it together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister.

We have five minutes left. We'll have two more questions of three minutes each, which means that we will end within one minute of being on time.

That depends on your efficiency, Mr. Lloyd. The floor is yours.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Minister, in an exchange with Mr. MacGregor earlier today, we were talking about high-capacity magazines. Minister, are you aware that high-capacity magazines are banned in Canada, and have been for quite some time?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Yes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay, that's good know. From the rhetoric that we're hearing, people seem to be unaware that this has been banned.

You stated earlier that frontline police officers support your gun buyback policy, and yet the National Police Federation, which is the largest union of frontline personnel, has said that your gun buyback program is going to take away critical resources and is not going to be effective.

How can you back up your claim that most frontline police officers support your policies when the union that represents them has come out and said that they do not support these policies?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Well, Mr. Lloyd, I think my point to you is that, in consultation with many rank and file as well as executive members of law enforcement, there is support for the buyback program.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Certainly there's support amongst individual members, but when we're talking about the statement of the union that represents most frontline personnel, that is a statement on behalf of all of those frontline members. That's a pretty compelling statement.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

By your own acknowledgement, your own words and the question you just put to me, there are different views—one by the union you just referred to, as well as the views of other rank and file members and executive members of law enforcement. My point to you is simply that the government believes that the buyback program is a responsible way to get deadly guns off of our streets and out of our communities.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

In my final time, Minister, May 1 is coming very quickly. I know that many legal firearms owners are very concerned that they're going to become criminals as of May 2. Can you guarantee to Canadian firearms owners that if your buyback program is not up and running by May 1, they're not going to be made criminals because of your government's inability to get this program going?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Lloyd, I think this committee appearance has largely been an example of how we can have reasonable debate.

We don't agree on gun control—you and I, your party and my party, and our government. Let's be candid about that, but the idea that somehow we're criminalizing law-abiding gun owners does not advance that debate. That's not what we're doing.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It's an honest question. It's coming up on May 1. What's going to happen on May 2, Minister? This isn't about rhetoric; it's a straight-up question.