Public Safety Committee on March 1st, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Chair, I took that extra 15 seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You did. Any time I can play you even, sir, I'm happy.

Ms. Vecchio, welcome to our committee.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

We're so glad to have you here.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

You might decide you don't want me after I'm done today, but anyway, it's wonderful—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

We're going to find out over the next few minutes.

Go ahead.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

We will.

It's wonderful to be here with you all today.

I want to go back a bit to when you put in the order in council, in 2020, following the horrific shooting in April that we saw in Nova Scotia, and also seeing the horrific incidents that are happening in your communities, such as in downtown Toronto, as well as Montreal.

I'm very concerned, though, because we talk about this gun buyback and we say, “Here's the order in council; we're taking away these guns.” However, I notice that a lot of times we talk about violence against women involving firearms and I'm very concerned, because sometimes I think we're selling people a bill of goods that we're going to fix this if we do that.

I'm going to start very simply. In 2018 there were just under 600 victims of police-reported intimate partner violent incidents where a firearm was present, up from 401 in 2013. What is being done to ensure that firearms are not in play when it comes to domestic and intimate partner violence?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. Vecchio, I share your concern. Maybe you'll just allow me a moment to explain why this is. I don't want any member of this committee to think that simply by way of introducing bans we solve the problem entirely. It might help. The government's firm belief is that it will help, but we need to do more than just ban firearms.

We also need to ensure that there is appropriate investment in law enforcement at our borders and in our communities, and as you heard from Ms. Dancho and others within your own ranks, the federal funds are being felt within the community. That's good. We should acknowledge that. That is not a partisan point; that is an important fact.

However, we also need to address root causes, and on intimate partner violence, you pointed out yourself that there were some 660 reports and incidents where a gun was present. That's up 60% from 2013, so one of the solutions we're looking at is the introduction of red flag and yellow flag laws.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I want to talk about this a bit, because I do really respect the fact. I go through the applications. I've applied for my possession and acquisition licence. I've done all these things too. My problem is that we all want to get rid of violence against women, and we saw on the shoulders of this the government come out with the order in council, which to me...whatever.

I'm looking at some of the statistics from just about 10 years ago, and 4% of those guns in domestic violence were registered. Only 24% of those people had a possession and acquisition licence. My problem is that the government is trying to fix something where this stuff is already illegal. We're talking about the bad people who are using illegal weapons. We're talking about a person who would impact their family by killing their own family member with a gun. We are talking about a mental health issue here for sure.

I wonder why we're putting so much money into a buyback where illegal people and bad people are still going to be doing these things, and why we're not taking that money and putting more into resources for violence against women and for CBSA, as well as mental health.

Why are we not doing that instead? Why are we not going directly to the core and are just assuming this is going to fix it?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. Vecchio, I would submit to you that we are doing both. We are investing in greater law enforcement capacity to go after organized crime and those who would commit intimate partner violence or gender-based violence against women, and we are also addressing some of the root causes by investing more in mental health and by investing more in affordable housing and in greater health care.

To specifically answer your original question, within the context of this portfolio, we are introducing important measures like red flag and yellow flag laws, which allow guns to be taken out of the hands of somebody who may pose a direct threat to women and girls—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Fair enough—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

—and that is a tool and an instrument that we hope to enact as quickly as we can.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I really appreciate that. I think the thing is that we have to do more at the very beginning. When you talk about the root cause, that is where we're going to do it. I just find that with this government there is a really reactionary tone. A lot of times, it's “well, this happened” and, 10 days later, it's “we're going to do this.” I don't find that it's the way that.... Did you actually get all of the data to support that?

I have 30 seconds...? Thank you.

I guess my thing is that at the end of the day, do you think this buyback will actually have that impact on violence against women, as you were noting back in 2020 when this came out?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Yes, and my view is supported by the advice we have gotten from law enforcement, particularly as it relates to AR-15 and assault-style firearms. That was supported by the rank and file as well as executives of law enforcement, and the extension of introducing a ban on that is—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I appreciate that, but—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

—to get those guns off our streets and out of our communities.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

—what I'm saying is that only 4% of them are illegal—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

This is an opportunity to let both of you know that you're both out of time.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Well, I'll take him out later and we'll talk about it then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Colleagues know that I don't negotiate extra time very well.

Mr. Zuberi, you have the next slot, and you have five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here, and thank you to all of the other witnesses.

I'm going to focus my questions on upstream, downstream and diversity inclusion generally. I'd like to start off with Commissioner Lucki.

We heard in previous testimony from Assistant Professor Robert Henry, who is with the Department of Indigenous Studies at the University of Saskatchewan, that “hiring more indigenous officers without changing the culture of policing itself does not actually make a bit of difference”.

For the RCMP, I'm sure you're tuned in to the question of indigeneity, of being culturally sensitive to indigenous people, and I'd like to just hear from you to what extent the RCMP is focused on the issue of indigenous people and to what extent the force is culturally sensitive.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Your comments are well taken, because you can't just assume that if you bring more indigenous people into the organization, they will see themselves within the organization. You have to provide the opportunity to promote within the rank and file, the opportunity to become a leader and the opportunities for training and promotion.

It's all about changing the culture and providing that most inclusive culture so that people can, first of all, in recruitment, see themselves within the organization, but that they feel a part of the organization where they can thrive, not just survive. They need to thrive within the rank and file to become a future leader and, hopefully, a future commissioner.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Yes, certainly.

You touched briefly upon culture and the changing culture within the police force. Can you elaborate a bit more upon that?