Public Safety Committee on March 1st, 2022

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, absolutely.

When I got into the chair, I brought in what we call “Vision 150”. It's all about, from start to finish, bringing in the right people and then making sure they are properly trained, and trained with empathy, and bringing in programs that address issues within our society, such as within the BIPOC communities with vulnerable people and teaching them how to deal with that. As well, it's about providing opportunities for people when things don't go right: that they have a place where they feel safe, where they feel trusted and that they can go to.

We've brought in a new independent centre for harassment. We've brought in an RCMP-indigenous collaboration, co-development and accountability office, where it's not just for collaboration outside of the organization, but also allows a venue for indigenous members to come forward if they are not feeling they are being treated with fairness, and where we can be more transparent and provide them with the opportunity.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

We heard also from the president of the Winnipeg Police Association, Maurice Sabourin. He spoke about how he would like to see more resources for intervention.

Do you have any programs that deal with intervention upstream to prevent people getting into gangs that will obviously help mitigate the gun crimes that we're talking about?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That's a great question.

We have a great program in B.C. that I'd like to highlight. It's called the gang intervention and exiting team. It provides that support to the high-risk individuals who are engaged in gang activities. It empowers those that are involved in gangs to exit. It has counselling services, life coaching, education, employment programming and mental health supports.

We've seen over 20 people in the last couple of years exit gangs because of the support they've received through this gang intervention and exiting team strategy.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to turn now to the minister regarding upstream programs that are essentially preventing people from entering gangs and downstream ones in helping people to exit gangs.

Minister, would you like to share any programs or policies regarding those two ends?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Zuberi.

It allows me to highlight that in budget 2018 our government invested $327.6 million over five years, with $100 million ongoing to establish the initiative to take action against gun and gang violence. In 2019, we actually increased funding for this initiative to $358.8 million.

I would also point out, Mr. Zuberi, that the government has allocated $250 million to the building safer communities fund for those communities that have seen a disproportionate amount of gun violence. There are lots of good resources which we will dispense in partnership with communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister.

Colleagues, I'm looking at the clock. The last round is 25 minutes, which would take us a few minutes past two o'clock. With your permission, I'll go that way, or I could cut a minute off of everybody's time and we'll finish exactly at two.

What's your preference? Do we go to five after two and get everybody through in this round? Are you okay with that, everybody?

It will be five minutes late. I'm at your disposal. Is that acceptable?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I know if this spills over into QP I won't be getting any questions from my critic, if she's still here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

No, there will be lots of time to go from one place to the other, Minister.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

There will be plenty of time. That's right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Ms. Dancho, I think the floor is yours. You can take your full five.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

I did want to follow up on the issue of rail. When I spoke to the Winnipeg police on Friday, they showed me a map of guns they've traced from Mexico and all over the U.S. There is a direct rail line from Mexico through the U.S. right up to Winnipeg. We have something called CentrePort where we have a massive amount of railcars coming in. The police explained that they do not have the capacity to check all of these railcars. We also heard from CBSA and the union representing their border agents that they don't have the capacity to search all of the railcars.

Police were very keen to express to me that there is a rising amount of drug and gun smuggling compared to even five years ago. It's substantially increased and it's increasing at an exponential rate.

I appreciate the funds your government has given to the border agents. That's fantastic. However, this is a growing issue. Again, I would just say that I think with the billion dollars that your government may be proposing for the handgun ban or the buyback, there would be much more of an impact on public safety if we could search railcars at a higher capacity. That is where police are saying illegal firearms and illegal drugs are coming in.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

In brief, we hope with the additional funds that we have set aside for CBSA there will be more guns that are interdicted and stopped at the border, regardless of the mode of transportation. I would take you back to what President Ossowski said about moving upstream, working closely with American partners to identify the sources of where those guns are coming from and being more pinpointed and targeted, whether it's by rail, land or sea. You may want to put an additional question to him about that.

The technology and the networks that we are leveraging with our American partners are a key part of the strategic plan that we have to stop guns from entering into the country regardless of the mode.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Minister.

I do appreciate the investments made. I just feel that a billion dollars can make a world of a difference for stopping this growing issue that's increasing in capacity as the days and years go by. I saw it with my own eyes.

Another issue is youth diversion programs. Your government has also invested money in that, which I appreciate, but we've been hearing from organizations on the ground that they have yet to see a significant amount of that five-year investment of $250 million. That hasn't quite trickled down to have the effect your government had hoped.

We heard from Marcell Wilson, for example, who is an ex-gang member. He used to smuggle firearms into Canada almost at an organized crime professional level. He's pretty much an expert in this regard.

We also heard from the Bear Clan, which is an indigenous, matriarch-led organization at the grassroots level in Winnipeg. They're saying that just because something is banned, no one anticipates that criminals who handle these guns illegally, who own them illegally or who possess already prohibited firearms, are going to hand over their guns to you. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise. I've asked you this question before.

The point they were making was that if your government is going to spend billions of dollars, please give it to them so they can divert youth from going into gangs. It would really have an impact long-term on gun violence if we can inject a billion dollars, for example, into youth diversion programs rather than to the buyback and the handgun ban.

I think it's urgent and I would much rather see your government divert that money to youth diversion programs.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. Dancho, I'm very eager to make the full use of the $250 million that has been allocated under the building safer communities fund. I assure you that my department and I—we spoke about this last week as well with our provincial and territorial partners—will make sure that money has a positive impact to reduce gun violence.

I will also say that the over $350 million that we have used to tackle guns and gang violence is not just about enforcement. As you've heard at this committee, some of that money is also being used as a preventative strategy to great effect, even in your own community of Winnipeg. We will do both.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate that. I hope you keep on and make sure that money gets to the grassroots level. I think we can use more.

In my last 30 seconds, Chair, I would like to say that I have a growing concern about redirecting already limited police resources to enforcing this buyback program to target law-abiding citizens who have legally owned firearms that are now going to be illegal within the coming weeks. I'm greatly concerned about the impact on public safety when we're taking limited police resources away and diverting them to something that's not really going to have much of an impact, according to the experts we've heard.

I just wanted to caution that. That's my concern, Minister.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Take 10 seconds, Minister.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We will invest in law enforcement as part of that and ensure that the buyback program gets deadly guns off of our streets and out of our communities while also preventing gun crime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Chiang, you're up next. You have five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

My question is directed to the minister. We heard from a number of witnesses that there are gaps in the data we collect on the use of firearms and the violence they inflict. While this study has focused on guns and gangs, if we take a broader public health approach we know that firearms can be used as a coercive tool by intimate partners or be used by individuals who die by suicide.

After hearing from witnesses regarding the gaps that exist, I want to get your opinion on the Government of Canada creating and funding an interdisciplinary national centre of excellence dedicated to collecting Canadian-specific data and conducting research on firearms violence.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang, for the question.

I agree that we have to invest in institutions like the one you have just described so that, among other things, we are collecting the best available data that can show the path forward to reducing intimate partner violence. It can also show how other communities have been disproportionately impacted by guns and gang violence.

We are going to make the investments into those institutions. We're going to make the investments that are necessary to collect that data. We are going to work very closely with law enforcement, victims groups and other stakeholders, so that we put into place the strategies that will have the best and most positive impact possible.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

My question is now to the CBSA.

Mr. Ossowski, to follow up on Ms. Damoff's questions about trains originating from the U.S., you had mentioned that it's best for you to be at the point of origin to inspect those trains before they're being loaded.

Do we have an agreement with the United States for our CBSA officers to down in the U.S. to inspect those freight trains?

[John Ossowski]

Yes, we actually have an overarching pre-clearance agreement. If you've travelled to the United States you'll know that when you're at a Canadian airport, you can be pre-cleared into the United States. That agreement is reciprocal and we're looking at doing something where we would position our officers in the United States and use intel to target a particular conveyance before the train gets assembled and it gets a lot more difficult to deal with it.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.

In saying that, do you have the adequate tools and technology to manage these issues?

[John Ossowski]

Certainly one of the things that the current strategy is focusing on is the intelligence and working with our law enforcement partners to understand the criminal routings. That's the key part that would drive us to look at a certain conveyance over another. That's where we're really focusing—upstream before it gets into Canada.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Do I have some more time left?