Evidence of meeting #11 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gun.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
We will deduct 15 seconds next round.
Then we move to Mr. Van Popta.
Sir, you have five minutes in this round. The floor is yours when you're ready to take it.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here.
Commissioner Lucki, I want to follow up on a line of questioning I had put to you the last time you were before us, which Mr. Chiang also started down.
As we develop laws and regulations that are designed to keep Canadians safe and guns out of the hands of criminals, we need to understand the problem. For that we need to have good, reliable statistics and analysis.
We have heard from many witnesses, you included, about the source of crime guns, and we're getting inconsistent, even contradictory evidence, so I want to explore this with you to better understand it. You said again just a short while ago that 69% of crime guns are domestically sourced, yet we have had other witnesses say completely the opposite, that 85% of crime guns are smuggled in from the United States.
You're all credible witnesses, so I'm assuming we're using different definitions of what is a crime gun. Statistics Canada was here as well. They said they are working on exactly that.
Perhaps you could comment on that. Do we need better statistics in order to develop better laws?
Commr Brenda Lucki
Our statistics are based on our actual tracing of the guns. We have a lab that traces guns. We trace all guns except for the ones in Ontario. They trace their own; they have that capability. That might in fact give a different number.
But of the ones that we have traced, for example in 2021, 69% of them were domestically sourced. When we look at the 31% left over, they were either smuggled or without importer documentation. That's based on the guns that we have actually successfully traced. Of the just over 3,000—3,200 I think—we have successfully traced the origins of about 2,572.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Good. Thank you.
Potentially there are two problems with that. The first is the definition of a crime gun. It has been suggested by earlier witnesses that perhaps if you have a very broad definition of a crime gun to include any gun found at a crime scene, even if the crime wasn't violent, and that's included in the definition of a crime gun, it's probably not all that useful a measure. It might be a true answer, but it's not particularly useful.
Another problem, of course, is that there is inconsistency in the tracing of actual crime guns across the country. It has been suggested that we need to have a national strategy for tracing all crime guns.
Commr Brenda Lucki
I would absolutely agree with your statement. That's why we have recently been given money in the last budget to increase our tracing capabilities. Right now, like I said, it's about 3,200, but with the new funding we will be able to triple our ability to trace firearms. Then we can make some evidence-based decisions, as you pointed out at the beginning, on the provenance of guns and where they come from. If we come to a point where it comes from a certain area, we can deal with that very succinctly.
It is not mandatory to have guns traced, but in the RCMP we are in the midst of developing policy to make it mandatory so that any gun seized will be traced. Of course, we will have to work with CACP as well to ensure that we can share those policies with other police agencies, because the more evidence we have on those statistics and looking at the trends, the better we are able to tackle the problem.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you.
Is there a timeline or a strategy for developing that national policy? Are you working with Statistics Canada on that problem?
Commr Brenda Lucki
We've just started on the policy. A lot of it is as a result of the good conversations we have had at parliamentary committees such as this, at which we see some of the gaps. We're in the development of the strategy and the policy. You raise a good point and I will make sure that our people consult with Statistics Canada to ensure that any policy we do have will be reflective and to see if we can standardize it across the country. I do have a Chiefs of Police round table and I'll be bringing it up to them. We'd like to try to speak with one voice, with a bit of flexibility obviously depending on people's environment. I think it would bode well if we were able to do that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you, Commissioner.
Far away on the “left coast”, we have Mr. McKinnon. I hope it's dry there. The floor is yours. Take it away.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Chair. It's not good policy to comment on the rain status here.
Welcome to all the witnesses. I'm very glad to see you all and I thank you for coming back and sharing your time.
Mr. Minister, I'll go back to the ever-popular buyback program. In 2019 when our government announced the ban on assault-style weapons, the Ontario chiefs of police issued a statement supporting the move saying that in their view, these weapons had no place in our communities. When the president of the Coalition for Gun Control testified before our committee, she made a point that stuck with me. She said, “I want to remind you that every illegal gun begins as a legal gun, either south of the border or in Canada.”
Minister, I know you've come at this question from many different angles today, but can you speak to the importance of moving forward on our proposed buyback to ensure that we reduce the number of guns that may be illegally diverted into the criminal market?
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
I can, Mr. McKinnon.
Before I give you the substance of my answer, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the victims and the advocacy groups who've been long, I think, putting forward very thoughtful and concrete ideas to help create safer communities. I want to acknowledge them because I know that for many, the wounds are still very deep. I think it's important that all of us, no matter what our political stripe, really understand and appreciate that the perspectives they bring forward are informed by some of the most difficult tragedies imaginable within our societies. Certainly not a day goes by that I don't ask myself—and I hope we all ask ourselves—what more we need to do. The answer for me does include making sure that we deliver on a buyback program, precisely because of the point that you raised, and Mr. Chiang raised, and many have raised, which is that guns can be diverted, whether they are initially legal or they are then manipulated to being something that is prohibited or illegal, and they can be used to devastating effect.
We heard Mr. Chiang refer to the Danforth shooting, which was in my hometown of Toronto. We need to reduce and completely eliminate that kind of possibility from ever happening, and certainly a buyback program will help to do that.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Minister.
I have a minute and a half left and a quick question. Regarding the buyback, I note that within two months we will quickly come to the end of the amnesty period that was included with the prohibition two years ago. It doesn't seem practical in that time frame to expect to be able to implement and deploy a buyback and to provide firearms owners a fair opportunity to utilize it. Can you comment on the imminence or the availability of the buyback program itself and in particular, do you contemplate any extension to the amnesty?
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
That is a question around the extension that we are very preoccupied with. Certainly, I do want to assure you that in the meantime my department, in consultation with law enforcement as well as with advocacy groups, is doing incredible and pressing work to advance a buyback initiative.
Look, this will be a watershed moment for the country. We've never had a buyback program. Other jurisdictions have, and they've seen successes. We hope to build on those successes. But we are doing this work very much from the point of view that this will be a maiden voyage, so we want to make sure that we get it right. We are going to get it right, Mr. McKinnon. We will make sure there is a way to take those deadly firearms—which we have prohibited because it was the right thing to do—out of communities and off our streets. My commitment to you and to all on this committee is that we will do that work together.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you, Minister.
We now head into the third round of questioning, and to lead off is Mr. Shipley.
You have five minutes, sir. The floor is yours.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Minister, for being here today. We seem to be running in the same circles lately, and it's nice to see you here.
Minister, I have some questions for you. I'm not trying to put you on the spot; this is just for my own knowledge.
I'm getting heckling from my own side. That's getting awkward.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
I am not trying to put you on the spot; I'm trying figure this out for my own knowledge.
I am not an owner of a gun. I do not have a possession and acquisition licence. Do you have your acquisition licence, a PAL licence?
Liberal
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
I do not, although as I mentioned earlier today in response, I think it was, to Mr. Lloyd, I have visited some communities and have been privy to some of the education around acquiring a PAL.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
It sounds like we're similar, because I don't either. I haven't shot a lot. I've shot once or twice. I don't own a gun. Have you ever shot a firearm?
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Okay.
I recently went to the Barrie Gun Club, which is a large gun club situated, obviously, in my riding of Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, not far from you. We'd love to have you up some time. There are too many good people there. I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms.
It was interesting, and this has been talked about a little bit already today. They laid out a whole bunch of firearms for me on a picnic table, of all things, to educate me a little bit. I was trying to learn and they were showing me different firearms that shoot the exact same way, but some had plastic barrels and some had wooden ones. For someone like me who's not an avid gun owner, who doesn't know a lot about them, I couldn't get my head around why one was banned and one wasn't. You sound like you're at the same level as me—perhaps more knowledgeable, I'll give you that—but you haven't used them much either. Could you try to explain to me why your firearms ban has banned one and not the other?
I'll give you one more example, if I could, Minister. One of the gentlemen there has given some help to farmers in the Oro area for 15 years with their coyotes in the springtime and has used—and I had to look this up because I don't know them—a Ruger Mini-14 for many years. He's an upstanding citizen in our community and has helped farmers with their herds for free by getting rid of some coyotes in the rural area. That gun is now banned. He can't use it anymore, so this spring he is unable to go out and help those farmers, even though he's used that gun for 15 years.
Can you explain some of these differences and how someone like that could now be banned from using that firearm?
