Public Safety Committee on March 1st, 2022

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see you again in person.

Thank you, Minister Mendicino, for joining us today. We appreciate it.

You'll recall that, during your most recent appearance before the committee, I asked you about the infamous Quebec firearms route, which we're familiar with. It crosses the Akwesasne territory. Most illegal firearms unfortunately pass through this route, because smugglers are familiar with it and know how to take advantage of it.

The committee met with representatives from the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service and the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne. They expressed concern about the situation. They wanted to do more and they didn't feel adequately consulted. The Bloc Québécois suggested the creation of a joint task force made up of members of all the police forces and organizations that could respond. The goal would be to not only share information, but also to send officers into the field who speak with each other and who attempt to respond as best they can.

We heard that information sharing on the ground is lacking. This includes police forces across the border, such as the New York police force; the Ontario and Quebec police forces; the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA; and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP. Perhaps all these people could speak to each other more and engage the Akwesasne police service more effectively, since that service doesn't feel adequately consulted.

Does your government plan to consult more with indigenous communities, such as the Akwesasne community?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Michaud.

First, I fully agree that we must stay in touch with the indigenous communities, not only in Akwesasne, but across Canada.

I know that police forces, the RCMP, CBSA and even provincial police forces have forums where they share information in an effort to stop firearms traffickers at the border.

It isn't easy. There are many challenges. That's why the government must continue to add resources and provide funding so that border police have the necessary tools.

I agree with you. We must stay in touch and we must work with the indigenous communities. That's exactly what the police forces are doing on the ground.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Minister Mendicino.

It isn't an easy task. Despite the co‑operation, which is certainly in good faith, hundreds of firearms continue to pass through the territory each week. These firearms ultimately end up in the hands of street gang members and youth in Montreal. Unfortunately, this results in killings.

I followed up with the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service and the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne after hearing their testimony. One proposed solution was to identify the police service as an essential service. The police chief seemed to say that discussions were being held with the federal government on this issue.

Some reports in the most recent Parliament recommended that indigenous police forces be identified as essential services.

Are you considering identifying indigenous police forces as essential services?

Do you think that this could be useful?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's a significant issue, Ms. Michaud.

Early last week, the federal, provincial and territorial ministers had a good meeting with indigenous leaders. Everyone brought up this issue. At that meeting, there was a discussion about identifying indigenous police forces as an essential service.

The government is very open to the idea of continuing to work with indigenous communities. We must continue to work closely with them.

A few programs provide more resources to indigenous communities. I know that more must be done, and the government will do it.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

You spoke of the importance of implementing more resources. Representatives of the Customs and Immigration Union told us about the lack of resources on the ground, both in terms of human resources and money.

They also told us that perhaps their expertise wasn't being used to its full potential. They could travel between the different border crossings and monitor rail transportation and shipping. As we know, a number of firearms come in through the Port of Montreal.

Will you increase resources to assist border services officers?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

There is only three seconds left, but that's impossible. Take 15 seconds, Minister.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I have a great deal of respect for all front‑line workers. That's why we're continuing to add resources and funding to help CBSA officers. We'll listen to front‑line workers and take their expertise into account.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister.

I'll now turn to Mr. MacGregor, who has six minutes, to end this first round of questioning.

The floor is yours, sir.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here. I appreciate your opening statement and the responses you've given to my colleagues.

You and I were both here during the 42nd Parliament when your government introduced the Cannabis Act. I remember that a lot of the rationale for that act was a sense that it is wrong to continue to charge and prosecute people through the criminal justice system for personal possession and use of cannabis.

Indeed, we had it confirmed by Ottawa lawyer Michael Spratt during his testimony before the committee how he used to have a fair number of clients who were his to shepherd through the justice system for cannabis-related offences, and that dropped down to zero after the passing of the Cannabis Act, so it had its desired effect.

The problem for many opioid substances, though, is that they're still on the books under our Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. We have had testimony and, indeed, very public proclamations from the City of Vancouver, the Government of B.C. and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police calling for decriminalization. Indeed, I was very moved at this committee when Staff Sergeant Michael Rowe of the Vancouver Police Department made that very clear connection between the profitability of the illicit drug trade and the link to firearms.

In fact, if you look at what fentanyl has done, one kilogram of fentanyl can now sell for $1.6 million on the market. That is compared to one kilogram of heroin, which sells for $80,000. The profitability is driving gang warfare. Gangs are competing for turf because of the obscene amounts of money they can make off the suffering of people in my province and right across this country.

Minister, we have an opportunity before us as policy-makers. We have many notable stakeholders calling for this. Why, then, are we still debating whether to decriminalize drugs and treat them as the health issue that they so very rightly are?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, Mr. MacGregor, I want to thank you for your advocacy on the important issue of how best to tackle opioid and substance issues, and I agree. I think you would hear from a great many experts that this is not always best dealt with on the front lines of our criminal justice system. In particular, you raised the government's reform around cannabis and the transformational efforts that were taken to take simple possession of cannabis out of the criminal justice system, because I think we all agree that was not an effective or efficient use of the scarce resources for our courts.

If I understand your point correctly, it was whether we should apply that same principle to other forms of simple possession of drugs that are under the CDSA, the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. You are highlighting that a number of individuals and experts have come forward to support that position.

I think we absolutely need to have that conversation. We have to do it in a way that is principled. We have to do it in a way that really looks at the evidence, and we have to do it in a way that will ensure that we are using the criminal justice system as a last resort.

For people who suffer from substance challenges, I would be the first to acknowledge that simply putting someone who is an addict in jail is not going to solve the problem. What they need is support. They need treatment. They often need mental health supports. That's why I think we need to look at ways to bridge into those other areas.

I also think, just in rounding out my answer to you, that we also do have to be mindful that there are those who are still using fentanyl and opioids, which can be very deadly, for all the wrong reasons. That is where I do believe the criminal justice system is implicated in a way that is responsible.

I was getting at this earlier with Mr. Lloyd's question around the criminal sentencing reform. We do need to also make sure that for those who are trying to visit upon innocent individuals the worst consequences through substances that are highly regulated—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I agree, Minister—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

—we reserve that space. That's my point.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I agree, and no one at this table or in civil society is going to dispute the fact that those who traffic in drugs and who are dealing them need to be held to account. However, they are clearly different from those who are using because of the traumas they've experienced in their everyday lives.

My time is limited. Maybe I'll just end with a statement.

You talk about having this conversation. This conversation has been had for the last decade. How many more experts, how many more statistics do we need before we take firm action on this? When people in my community go out and buy street drugs, they are playing Russian roulette with their lives. They just do not know whether or not that hit is going to kill them, but they are addicted. They have no choice. This is how they get through their day-to-day lives.

I implore you, Minister, to use this moment, to do the right thing, and to change policies so that we save lives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

We now move into the second round of questions, and I would call on the vice-chair of the committee, Ms. Dancho, to lead off this round.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's great to be here.

Thank you, Minister, for being here again. It's great to see you. I appreciate that you're a frequent flyer at this committee.

We are, of course, discussing the very serious issue of gun violence in our cities. On Friday I visited the Winnipeg police headquarters, and they provided me with quite an immersive tour of what they're doing on the ground to combat gang activity. It was incredible. There was half a million dollars' worth of methamphetamines and wads of cash. I've never seen so much in my life. Also, there was a whole table full of the illegal guns that they seized during this large operation. These operations are ongoing. Almost monthly they're seizing this many guns and this much drugs and cash.

All the guns they showed me on the table were already prohibited in Canada, so I'm just not clear. Your government is talking a lot about investing several billion dollars in this so-called “buyback” program and a proposed handgun ban, which you mentioned today.

How is banning certain firearms in Canada going to stop the guns that I saw with my own eyes that are already banned and being used to hurt Canadians right now?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I just wonder if you can say with certainty whether or not any of those guns were prohibited under the OIC that the government introduced in the last couple of years, Ms. Dancho. Maybe you can and maybe you can't.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

They were specifically handguns.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would just simply say, as I said to Mr. Lloyd, that to the extent that we can, we are investing additionally to provide law enforcement with the tools they need.

I am actually quite assured that those dollars that are coming from the federal government and being transferred to the provincial government are making their way into your community and are leading to arrests and seizures. That's a proof point, Ms. Dancho, that this government will continue to support law enforcement—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I can comment on that—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'll just say in conclusion that it's not the only thing we can do. It's not just about providing additional money to police. We have to take additional steps to prevent gun crimes from occurring as well. That's something I hope to be able to expand on in my time here.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate that. To be very fair to you, I did ask them about the federal funding they have received and they said it's very helpful.

I did ask about the several billion dollars that we anticipate the buyback and the proposed handgun ban will cost. As with all law enforcement I've talked to, both at this committee and also in person on Friday with the Winnipeg police who are seeing this on the ground, there is a great sense of frustration from police. Their resources are already strapped. They're having a hard time, as you know, dealing with rising gun violence and drug trafficking in our cities. When we speak to RCMP in rural Canada, rural crime is a growing issue as well, as you know.

From what I am hearing on the ground directly from police officers, there are no resources available for them to further extend themselves to now go to law-abiding citizens to remove their firearms.

Are you at all concerned that the measures your government will be implementing with the potential handgun ban and the buyback are going to severely hurt the already strapped resources of police to do their jobs right now to combat drugs and gang crime?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I take the point, Ms. Dancho.

My message to you is that we need to be able to do both. The solutions here are not mutually exclusive. It is not just about picking one lane. We have to invest in the law enforcement that we are doing—and I thank you for the acknowledgement—and that's being felt by your community. We'll continue to do that.

We also need to be sure that the guns we are now prohibiting, like the AR-15 and other assault-style weapons, because they are deadly and their purpose, really, is only to kill people—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Could I just comment on that?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

These need to be taken out of our communities. That is the rationale behind having a buyback program.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

One thing that was really interesting was that they showed me a whole array of firearms that your government has called “assault-style”. They showed me two that weren't the same gun, but they had the identical fire power and were identical in every way except in cosmetic terms. One of them had a wood stock and one of them had a black stock. They said that the black stock one was illegal but had the exact same capability of the other gun that was still legal.

There clearly hasn't been a lot of expert advice on which guns you're looking to ban. From experts we've talked to—from police to firearms experts—it seems that the ban you're putting in place has nothing to do with the power of a firearm, but everything to do with how scary it might look. To me, that is a great waste of resources, frankly.

One issue I want to mention to you is something that is concerning. Police are seeing guns being smuggled by train from Mexico, through the U.S. and all the way to our cities. There is a direct line by train from Mexico to Winnipeg. They are seeing a great increase in gun violence and illegal guns that are already prohibited in Canada, which seem to be smuggled in by rail.