Evidence of meeting #110 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csis.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you, Chair.
We got a little off topic there.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
My first question is for Mr. Juneau-Katsuya.
You were very adamant, sir, in your opening remarks, that the commissioner must be independent and should report to the House of Commons.
Could you expand a little bit more on your thoughts on that, why you're so firm on that and how that would work?
Former Chief of the Asia-Pacific Desk, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Evidence was presented during the inquiry that, even as we speak today, the director of CSIS had to return twice to his office to change a report that was submitted by CSIS to the Prime Minister. The capability to manipulate, control and limit the information, the dissemination of sensitive information within the appropriate concerned parties, has been there from the beginning, right from the get-go, from the outset of the creation of CSIS. We even have evidence that there was obstruction by CSIS of RCMP investigations, and I named four of them where CSIS has voluntarily prevented the RCMP from receiving some information to help in the prosecution of certain individuals.
From that perspective, it is obvious that, unfortunately, the system was geared to manipulate, to control. It's only when a whistle-blower or many whistle-blowers have the courage to show the evidence publicly in the media that we finally are addressing a crucial question for and a crucial threat against our constitution. In our perspective and in my point of view, it's evident that CSIS is too influenced by or subject to influence from the Prime Minister's office or his staff. It's difficult for the RCMP, also, to be neutral and to investigate adequately.
From my point of view, in all fairness to all the parties, the commissioner should be reporting directly to the House of Commons, just like the Auditor General does, therefore, being capable to release the information adequately to protect our system.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you for that.
My follow-up and second question is for you, sir, and also for Mr. Shull because in your opening remarks, you mentioned that provinces definitely need to be involved in this, which I found interesting. Mr. Shull mentioned, specifically, that municipalities need to be involved. I found it a little interesting that you both picked different levels of government. Maybe you could each take your time and expand on how they should be involved and why you're each seeing either more of a provincial issue or more of a municipal issue.
Former Chief of the Asia-Pacific Desk, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
I share the perspective with regard to the municipal as well. We have seen foreign interference at all levels. As soon as they have power, politicians at all levels have been approached by foreign states to manipulate them and to control them.
My last comment is that provincial governments are investing, collectively, billions of dollars every year in research and development in universities and everything. We have been having many foreign agents stealing intellectual property, and no protection at all is started or initiated by the province because there are no advisers, no national security advisers, with the premier of every province. When the offer was given to them to receive a special briefing from CSIS last June, only the premier in B.C. accepted the invitation. All the others refused. There's a certain naïveté that is close to stupidity here when we start dealing with this.
Conservative
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Yes, and on the municipal point, this is a national sport, not just a federal sport. However, my comment was more related to the actual application of the law itself. Municipalities are excised from the act, and I couldn't provide a good reason why. I think it's where democracy touches people the most. If your kid's school gets hacked, your hospital goes down, your water turns off or your electricity turns off, people will know. Municipalities are where democracy touches people the most and the closest, and they're not in this bill.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you for that.
Not to put Mr. McSorley on the hot seat between you two.... Definitely, Mr. McSorley felt that we needed to take our time, and I agree that we need to do the right thing, but time is of the essence with this legislation. Perhaps you two gentlemen could speak to the urgency of getting this legislation passed. What is the risk if we do not have these mechanisms in place by the next election?
That is for the both of you, if you'd like.
I'm sorry, Mr. McSorley.
Former Chief of the Asia-Pacific Desk, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Definitely. It's a long time overdue.
As I reported, I was chief of Asia-Pacific, and I served CSIS for over 21 years. I've been in the game for over 40 years, and I've witnessed—from Mr. Mulroney to Mr. Trudeau—everybody being corrupted, everybody being sort of influenced by agents of influence within their inner circle, so it's more than late. Unfortunately, we're paying a dear price, as well, because now our foreign allies are looking at us as a bunch of Mickey Mouse leaders because we're not taking the right steps. It is very urgent that we have a law—or legislation—that defines what foreign interference is about and what the punishment can be so that the investigators, the RCMP or other police departments, can do their jobs.
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
I would just say that, when I read words in a bill like “systemic effects”, “endanger democracy”, “sovereignty” and “Canadian values”, I start to pay attention, and that's the point. Yes, the bill's not perfect. Yes, we're doing it fast, but it's better than nothing. I would say that, if you have a review mechanism on the bill, get out the door with it, put some miles on it, and then make changes afterwards.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Mr. Shipley.
We'll go to Mr. Bittle.
We have 17 minutes before the vote. Do you want to have your six minutes now or wait?
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I'll take the six minutes now. I think that's what we agreed to.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Let's get going and not waste any more of the witnesses' time.
I appreciate everyone's being here.
Mr. Shull, I heard from officials that they believe municipalities will be covered by the legislation because they are not independent entities; they are creatures of the province. Do you accept that explanation or do you still have concerns?
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
I totally get what they're saying. As a matter of law, municipalities are creatures of the province. The absolute worst possible outcome, though, is that you catch someone in this and then you get turned around at court. What's the reason? Just add some words to make sure that they're explicitly covered.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
That's fair. I appreciate that.
Monsieur Juneau-Katsuya, with respect to advisers to premiers, is that something that can be covered through legislation?
Former Chief of the Asia-Pacific Desk, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
They're covered by the leadership of the federal government. The federal government is responsible for national security, and rightly so. It should encourage the premiers to appoint national security advisers who will be kept informed.
One of the big problems that we had in our system is that CSIS was prevented from sharing information for too long with many people. We need to be capable of sharing information, because the only real defence we have against foreign interference is awareness, awareness, awareness. If we do not warn people, if we do not develop certain reflexes to do better business, we are going to be taken over.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Do our allies provide this type of advice to other tiers of government?
Former Chief of the Asia-Pacific Desk, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Yes, for example, MI6 and MI5 each year host a national conference inviting business leaders to receive the latest threat assessment that these agencies have perceived during their work, and they also share a defence mechanism. In England, they even have a special department that companies can call to receive some training and assistance to better protect themselves.
The government needs to understand that 86% of our national infrastructure is either owned or operated by the private sector, so we need to co-operate with them. For the provinces, it's the same perspective. As I tried to point out, billions of dollars are invested every year in national research, and we're losing that because we don't have consciousness of what's going on.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Back to my original question, though, is that something that we can legislate, or is it just a cultural difference and a direction that the British government has taken? Is it something that we can address in this particular legislation?
Former Chief of the Asia-Pacific Desk, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
If we legislate, off the top of my head, I suspect there will be a push-back from the provinces, because they will claim that there is a certain territorial issue.
Definitely stewardship and leadership should be promoted within the national security culture that needs to be developed, which is another element as well. We do not have a national security culture. When I talk about that, I'm not talking about state police; I'm talking about developing reflexes collectively as a society in order to understand that we need to do business differently.
When we talk about the various levels, municipal, provincial and federal, we've seen that there are people currently in charge of some of the largest cities in Canada who have been agents of influence of the Chinese government and were positioned before at other levels. The main purpose of politics is criss-crossing over political levels as well.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you so much.
I'll go back to Mr. Shull.
How do the provisions in C-70 compare with legislative schemes enacted in other Five Eyes countries to counter foreign interference and influence?
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Do you know what I will do? I'll submit a written brief on that. My colleague Wesley Wark is the guru, and he wrote a CIGI paper on this, so rather than my saying this off the top of my head, I will submit it in writing. He did a full assessment of the U.S., the U.K. and Australia and a review of Canada's law, too, so I will submit that.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you so much.
Can you speak to the newly proposed information-sharing provisions found in the bill?
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
I'm all for them. Realistically, like my colleagues around the table said, a big threat factor is the private sector, and we were unable to share information with them—provinces and municipalities. If hostile state actors are doing what hostile state actors are going to do, you're going to want to be able to share that information, and this goes a long way to remedying that deficiency.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I believe I only have about 30 seconds left, so I will cede the rest of my time. Thank you so much.