Evidence of meeting #113 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
I explained earlier this week—and perhaps if Mr. Cooper is interested, the director of CSIS or others can explain it—the challenge of taking—
Conservative
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Are any in cabinet? Are any of them sitting around the cabinet table?
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
Mr. Cooper can pretend to be a prosecutor if he wants. I was—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
I'm not pretending to be anything. I'm asking you a very straightforward question as to how many compromised MPs there are and whether there are any in cabinet. Just give an answer.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Mr. Cooper. That's your time.
The minister may answer if he wishes.
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
No. Mr. Cooper doesn't seem to be interested in the answer. He's more interested in interrupting, so we'll go to the next question.
Conservative
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Minister LeBlanc, has the leader of the official opposition, Mr. Poilievre, received his security clearance?
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
Ms. O'Connell, no, he has not. We've offered, as I think colleagues know, on a number of occasions to process the appropriate clearance for the Leader of the Opposition so he can perhaps see some of the information that his colleagues seem so interested in us releasing, but he has not made such a request.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Is the offer to provide that opportunity for a security clearance still available to him?
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
Of course it is, Ms. O'Connell.
We were very pleased that, for example, the leader of the New Democratic Party accepted our offer. We think that's a collaborative, constructive way to increase the confidence that Canadians have in our democratic institutions.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Minister LeBlanc, Mr. Cooper just said this issue is “as serious as it gets”, yet his leader refuses to receive a security clearance that would allow him to have the full information that, frankly, NSICOP members have. It would allow him to go to Canadians and his own caucus and say that he's reviewed the information and that while he can't reveal the details, he feels confident that some information is uncorroborated. He could say that he feels confident that other information is being further pursued by law enforcement, and he feels confident in our democratic institutions.
Instead, with an issue that's “as serious as it gets” according to the Conservatives, they purposefully decide to be ignorant of it. Instead, they throw around fake, sanctimonious accusations about numbers of compromised MPs and what that might mean. What the sanctimony of pure, chosen ignorance by the Conservative Party will create is mistrust and distrust in our democratic institutions, without the ability to be informed.
Their own leader has the ability to be fully informed of what's going on in this serious matter. Instead, he chooses blind ignorance, which creates mistrust and distrust. Who benefits most from mistrust in our democratic institutions? It's foreign states that hope to influence them.
Minister, accusations have been thrown out about influence in the Leader of the Opposition's own leadership race. However, is it not completely inappropriate to start making accusations about some pieces of intelligence and, funny enough—
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
It's my time and I can make comments.
It's funny enough that they leave that accusation out of their comments.
Do you find it irresponsible for a leader of the opposition who hopes to be prime minister one day to be so ignorant and blind to an issue that's “as serious as it gets”?
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
Ms. O'Connell, you're absolutely right. If the Leader of the Opposition was serious in understanding the information underlying the NSICOP report....
Ms. O'Connell has served on this committee of parliamentarians so would know this better than I do. The committee produced two reports. It produced a top secret report for the Prime Minister and for our intelligence agencies, and it produced a report that was released publicly earlier this week. The report released publicly was, of course, subject to all of the appropriate legislative protections. Mr. McGuinty has spoken about this publicly.
If the Leader of the Opposition was interested in seeing the highly sensitive information that the committee of parliamentarians saw that informed their top secret version of the report, he would simply have to indicate that he is prepared to receive the appropriate security clearances. Then he would have access to that information in the way that, for example, the leader of the New Democratic Party can. In the difficult world of intelligence information, which comes with caveats and the need to protect sources and methods, that, to me, is a responsible, thoughtful way to do it. It's not the path that Conservatives have chosen.
I thought your speculation as to some of the reasons, Ms. O'Connell, was absolutely valid.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Minister, the Conservatives would like to pretend that this is somehow a cover-up. However, the information that is protected and deemed secret or that has top secret status would be governed by law and legislation.
Were law and legislation in place during previous governments or is this somehow new law, like the espionage act?
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB
As to the protection of this information, the director of CSIS and the RCMP have spoken about why it's important for us to do this work and the law that governs it. It's no different from conversations I've had with Five Eyes colleagues and other allies of Canada.
In terms of the particular legislation that's existed, perhaps the director can give you a quick sense, Ms. O'Connell, of the different pieces of legislation that govern the release of this information and how long they've existed.
I know we're celebrating CSIS's 40th birthday this year. I'm sure the director will invite all of you to the party in a second.
Perhaps David wants to add something.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Yes. Thank you.
The legislation is quite clear and has been in place for some time. The Security of Information Act is there to protect sources and methods and to protect against disclosure of information that would be injurious to people. I think we have seen the impact of leaks, and when classified information is released, there are challenges that come with that. We try to make sure that in a democratic environment, we address national security threats and that we also do it in a manner that is respectful of the law.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you.
The protection of people is not the protection of some opposition leader or some parliamentarian. It's those serving our country by collecting this information who could be put in danger by the release of sensitive information. Is that accurate?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Ms. O'Connell, I'm sorry. I was distracted by other things, but you're way over your time, so we'll have to cut it off there.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'll try to do my best in two and a half minutes.
Mr. Virani, I would ask you to give me short answers, please.
You've had many consultations on Bill C‑70. How much time did you spend on it?
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
The most recent consultations lasted a few months. In terms of the consultations before I arrived in cabinet, I'll have to ask the officials accompanying me to help me.