Public Safety Committee on June 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 113 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Pursuant to the order of reference referred to the committee on Wednesday, May 29, and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, May 27, the committee resumes its study of Bill C-70, an act respecting countering foreign interference.

Before we begin, I would like to ask all members and in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines on preventing audio feedback incidents. Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, particularly the interpreters. Only use an approved black earpiece. The former grey earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you're not using the earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

I have some specific comments on Bill C-70. I would like to remind members that amendments to Bill C-70 must be submitted to the clerk of the committee by 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time tomorrow, Friday, June 7. It is important for members to note that, pursuant to the order adopted by the House on May 30, the 4 p.m. deadline to submit amendments is firm. This means that any amendments submitted to the clerk after the deadline and any amendments moved from the floor during the clause-by-clause consideration of the bill will not be considered by the committee.

I would like now to welcome our first witnesses today. We have with us the Hon. Dominic LeBlanc, PC, MP, Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs. We also have the Hon. Arif Virani, PC, MP, Minister of Justice.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Go ahead on a point of order.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I would simply like to make sure that the required sound tests have been carried out, for the sake of the interpreters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Yes, they were. Thank you.

Carrying on with our witnesses, we have officials as well. From the Department of Justice, we have Shalene Curtis-Micallef, deputy minister and deputy attorney general of Canada, and Heather Watts, deputy assistant deputy minister. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Shawn Tupper, deputy minister, and Richard Bilodeau, director general. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Mark Flynn, deputy commissioner of federal policing. Finally, from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, we have Sarah Estabrooks, director general of policy and foreign relations, and David Vigneault, director.

Thank you to all for being here today for this study and on such short notice.

I now invite Minister LeBlanc to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Please go ahead, sir.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety]

Mr. Chair and colleagues, good morning. Thank you for inviting me to be with you this morning for Bill C-70. It's a vital part of our government's and Parliament's efforts to counter foreign interference.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for introducing the senior colleagues from the department, the RCMP and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service who have joined me this morning.

I think we can all agree that the government and, by conclusion, Parliament have no greater obligation than the protection of the Canadian people and our democracy.

Like us, Canadians are aware of and rightly concerned about the pervasiveness and increasing complexity of foreign interference. They also know that foreign interference poses a real and serious threat to our country, our democratic processes and our institutions.

State actors seek to exploit Canada's vulnerabilities by targeting governments at all levels, our open academic systems, private enterprises, and even communities and individuals. And we must close those vulnerabilities in the face of ever‑increasing and, as many others have said before me, ever more complex threats.

Our response includes engaging with those directly affected on potential solutions. That's why the Government of Canada engages with private companies, researchers and the health sector, for example, to inform them of threats and help them better understand how they can protect their work. It provides mechanisms for public reporting through various websites and national security threat phone lines. It engages with at-risk communities in Canada to help them better protect themselves against foreign threats. It helps critical infrastructure operators defend the critical cybersecurity systems that Canadians properly rely on. It coordinates and shares information with the Five Eyes and other allies, such as G7 and NATO partners, on foreign interference and other threats. It also enhances collective resilience to disinformation by helping Canadians and individuals in Canada become better informed about disinformation tactics and actors and by enhancing transparency.

Based on what we heard through a diverse and robust consultation process, we introduced Bill C-70, an act respecting countering foreign interference, earlier last month. In order to bolster our ability to detect and disrupt foreign interference threats, Bill C-70 proposes important and necessary amendments to modernize the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act, the Security of Information Act, the Criminal Code and the Canada Evidence Act.

Moreover, Bill C-70 introduces the foreign influence transparency and accountability act, which is designed to increase transparency by creating a foreign influence transparency registry for individuals and entities acting on behalf of foreign principals that are seeking to influence activities within our political and governmental processes. All individuals or entities who enter into an arrangement with a foreign principal and who undertake activities to influence a government or political process in Canada would be required to publicly register these activities.

To be clear, the registry creates a positive registration obligation for individuals or entities who are in a foreign influence arrangement with a foreign principal. Individuals and entities would be required to show more transparency about their connections to foreign states and support Canada's national security objectives.

However, we recognize that the foreign influence transparency and accountability act is by no means a single solution to foreign interference. That's why Bill C-70 also introduces measures and tools to help our law enforcement and intelligence agencies detect, deter, decrease and disrupt threats of foreign interference at their early stages, while of course being mindful of the rights and privacy of Canadians. The foreign influence transparency and accountability act would build on the government's ongoing and long-standing efforts to protect Canada against the threats of foreign interference.

I can assure the committee that the government will continue to work with all our partners, including those in other jurisdictions in Canada, affected communities, academia and civil society, to address foreign interference together.

Mr. Chair, I want to thank you and your colleagues on this committee for the work you've been doing so exhaustively over recent days with respect to this legislation. We look forward to your deliberations on amendments that might improve and strengthen this legislation.

I want to acknowledge what I think is an important, non-partisan, collective effort from all parties in the House of Commons to work together on something important to Canadians. I thank all of you for your efforts in this regard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Minister.

I now invite Minister Virani to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Minister of Justice]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'm very pleased to be here today to speak to you about the threat of foreign interference in Canada and how this bill, Bill C-70, aims to help detect, disrupt and protect against the threats to our country and its institutions by foreign actors.

Bill C-70 modernizes Canada's laws to better protect our democracy and protect people in Canada against new and evolving threats. We are particularly concerned about members of diaspora communities who are disproportionately targeted by those who engage in foreign interference. The reforms to our criminal laws proposed in the bill are strong, measured and direct.

Looking first at the Security of Information Act, this bill would amend the existing offence of using intimidation, threats or violence on behalf of foreign states against Canadians and people living in Canada. It would simplify prosecutions by removing the requirement to prove that the prohibited act resulted in harm to Canadian interests or helped a foreign state. All that would be required is that the threat or violence was done on behalf of or in association with a foreign state.

The bill would also ensure that these protections extend to people working outside the country or travelling to visit loved ones. It would ensure that the law addresses threats by foreign states against family members of Canadians. This captures instances where family members are being threatened to exert pressure on someone to do or not do something, like protesting a foreign government. This is a significant step in addressing transnational repression and some of the fears we heard from community groups and stakeholders during the consultations we have already undertaken.

The bill would create a new offence for committing an indictable offence for a foreign entity, as well as a new general foreign interference offence when a person knowingly engages in surreptitious or deceptive conduct for a foreign entity. We are also strengthening protections for our democratic institutions. The new offence of political interference for a foreign entity criminalizes interfering with a democratic process and would apply at all times to all levels of government—this is a significant change—and, importantly, to the nomination process of political parties.

In terms of the Criminal Code, the bill proposes to modernize the existing offence of sabotage, which hasn't been revised since 1951. We also propose adding two offences to protect critical infrastructure and to criminalize the creation and distribution of devices intended for sabotage.

This is to clarify that the offence applies to the public and private infrastructure that is essential to the health, safety, security and economic well-being of people in Canada—for example, the private and public infrastructure systems that enable transportation or communications, or support the delivery of health and food services.

During public consultations, Canadian association and industry stakeholders made clear the need to protect critical infrastructure. The proposed amendments would expressly recognize the right to freedom of expression and the right to peaceful assembly, protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and confirm that individuals acting under these rights without the intent to commit an act of sabotage do not fall within the scope of the offence.

I will now speak to part 3, which amends the Canada Evidence Act and the Criminal Code.

This section of the bill would create a new, standardized mechanism with robust procedural protections to ensure the protection of national security information in the judicial review of government decisions.

Through these important legislative proposals, our government is taking concrete action to protect all people in Canada, our institutions and our democracy from foreign interference. These changes have been built with the input of Canadians, including members of many diaspora communities. They are balanced, they are fair and they are necessary.

At this point, along with Minister LeBlanc, I would be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll start our questions with Mr. Caputo.

Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate all of the witnesses for being here.

I'll direct the following questions to Minister LeBlanc.

The NSICOP report that was recently released reveals that parliamentarians, including members of our House, the House of Commons, knowingly and deliberately assisted a hostile foreign state to the detriment of the people of Canada. This places a cloud of suspicion over every single member of the House—elected members.

Do you know the names of these people?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I am updated regularly and in a complete way by our intelligence agencies, the RCMP and the Department of Public Safety, so I am very comfortable that I have the information I need to do the work I have to do. However, you'll understand that discussing the details, particularly of the most sensitive information, is not something we want to do publicly.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not asking you to discuss sensitive information. I'm asking whether you know the names. Do you know the names, yes or no?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I know that a number of names surfaced in various intelligence products I have seen, but I was not in the room when the committee of parliamentarians did its work. I don't have the exact details of which documents it saw and didn't see, but I am very comfortable that I have access to all of the most important intelligence information, which would include, in some cases, names.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay. People are alleged, in some cases, according to our intelligence communities, to have committed some of the most serious offences known to Canadian law. Are you prepared to release their names, yes or no?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

No.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

You will not release the names of elected members operating in the House of Commons. Do you think Canadians have a right to know, yes or no?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

It's important for Canadians to understand that these names are contained in intelligence reports. In some cases, it's uncorroborated or unverified intelligence information.

I think we need to be very careful to understand, as the director himself has said, that intelligence is often a series of puzzle pieces. One particular piece of the puzzle, an intelligence source or information, may not have context or may be discredited or altered by subsequent information. The idea that there is a perfect list of names that is entirely reliable—

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Minister, sorry—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

—and should be released to the public is simply irresponsible.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Minister, the NSICOP report doesn't equivocate like you just did. The NSICOP report is incredibly clear on names.

Do you think Canadians have the right to know—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

It's not actually clear on names.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not done my question, Minister.

Do you think Canadians have the right to know, when they cast an X next to the name of somebody in the next 15 months—the very thing that we're dealing with here in Bill C-70—whether a member is under the influence of a hostile foreign state, yes or no?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I think Canadians know, and I'm confident they have every reason to be reassured, that our intelligence agencies and the RCMP take their responsibilities extraordinarily seriously and have the resources necessary to investigate. Should the RCMP, for example, in its wisdom, decide that charges should be laid in consultation with the appropriate prosecutors, that's our system in a rule-of-law democracy. It's not simply releasing a series of names or, as Mr. Caputo says he's concerned about, casting aspersions on everybody by pretending that there's some perfect list of names that the government is not releasing. No other western democracy knows this.

Mr. Caputo knows that in the government of Mr. Harper, even that kind of conversation wouldn't have been conceivable, so I think there's a certain disingenuous element in Mr. Caputo's theatrics this morning.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Under Mr. Harper's government, we did not get a report that said foreign state actors had infiltrated—

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

It's because you didn't support setting up NSICOP.