Public Safety Committee on Aug. 28th, 2024

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Ms. Lantsman, you can't assert something like that if you're in fact not—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

He's been here for six years. It's just a known fact from your own documents.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

To assert, as you said, that people were aware six years ago of some information that came to light recently is wrong.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

There is speculation that he was brought in under the Syrian refugee program. Is this correct, yes or no?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I'm not sure I can speculate on the particular immigration status and program. I'm not sure what part of that might be subject to the criminal trial. You could certainly ask the immigration department that question.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

If he was brought in through this stream and the government promised increased screening on asylum seekers in this country, do you believe, after everything we know today, that your government is doing its job on that?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, I don't want to give credence to the premise that you asked, because I don't have that information.

I want to be very precise that you don't link his arrival to a particular immigration program. The immigration department, I think, can provide you with those facts. I don't have them, but in answering your question, I don't want to appear to confirm that, because I don't have that information.

I am satisfied that both the security services and the RCMP with the immigration department have in place a series of rigorous screening and background checks that take place. You heard Ted talk about biometric screening and six different databases. We heard the interim director of CSIS talk about 300 agreements and 150 different countries. We have access to a great amount of information to keep Canadians safe. We need to make sure that this information is used in the most expeditious way possible.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

This person was brought into Canada six years before a terrorist plot was foiled just days before they would have killed people in Toronto, and you're telling Canadians that you're satisfied with the screening processes in place.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

As I said in my opening comments, this person and the nature of the allegations that ultimately led to the investigation and arrest came to our attention in June, and this person, from that point on, was obviously under the appropriate surveillance to ensure that any threat was mitigated, and that led to the ultimate arrest on July 28.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Lantsman.

We go now to Mr. Gerretsen for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

I want to start by thanking the committee for voting in favour of the Liberal motion to study this, because I think it's extremely important that we do that.

I do take issue, Minister. Both Conservatives who have asked you questions have referred to this as a colossal failure. I think that when you look at the various different organizations that have been working together—as you indicated, some seven or eight organizations—this is an example of how we should be working, how our organizations and agencies should be working together to get the best results for Canadians.

I take issue or I recognize that Mr. Caputo seems to take issue with the fact that the information that assisted us in coming to the conclusion that we did was given to Canada, but the reality is that Canada is a net importer of information. As a matter of fact, if you think of all the agencies throughout the different countries that would work together, every agency would end up being a net importer. That's the whole purpose of coming together with other countries to share information so that we can all benefit from it.

That being said, can you talk a little bit about the risks, Minister, with disclosing the exact details of how CSIS may have become aware of the threat posed to us?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Gerretsen, thank you for the question. I can certainly, based on briefings I've had over the last year and a month from CSIS, offer a view, and perhaps Ms. Lloyd could add something.

The reason CSIS or people like me, who may have access to some of this information in the routine course of their job, don't confirm or identify particular sources or partner countries, as you said, that are sharing information with us—and we would, of course, share information that we gather with those same countries—is that if we confirmed both the tradecraft and the way these intelligence agencies gather information or if we confirmed it was agency X and not agency Y, perhaps some of these bad threat actors could identify either human sources who would be at huge risk—you can understand what that would mean—or be able to understand the tradecraft, the very sophisticated and effective way that CSIS and other agencies gather this information in order to protect Canadians. That's why every previous government has been very prudent, and that's why the Security of Information Act also provides criminal sanctions for those who cross the line.

Perhaps Vanessa could add something specific, or, Mark—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I do actually have another question that maybe, Interim Director Lloyd, you could answer as well.

If I'm not mistaken, today is the one-month anniversary of the arrest of the individuals. I've personally never seen a chronology of events disclosed to the public so quickly, despite the fact that I'm hearing from across the table that my colleagues are concerned about how quickly this was released.

Are you aware, Interim Director, of any other cases in which the details have been released so quickly to the public?

[Vanessa Lloyd]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

Honourable member, it is our objective to be as transparent as we can with Canadians. The safety and security of Canadians and Canada's interests are of paramount importance to our organization as well as to our security partners who join us here today.

I can also say that it is equally important, as the minister referenced, to be very vigilant with regard to disclosure of specific facts. As the minister referenced, this can allow for our adversaries to learn where they went wrong. Providing them a road map to change their methods will have the impact of making it more difficult to detect these threats. Equally we hope to be able to preserve the capabilities and methodologies and the tradecraft of our service that the minister referenced in order to address those threats.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I appreciate that and I appreciate your diligence in answering that question.

Are you aware, Minister, of any other time that information was released as quickly as we've seen it released in this particular case?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Certainly, Mr. Gerretsen, not in the time that I've been minister; I think we recognize, and my colleague Marc Miller has said so publicly, the understandable questions that Canadians had when they learned, following the RCMP news release, of these arrests. I think it is reasonable for the government and for Canadians to ask how this sequence of events that we've laid out before the committee could take place, and what we can learn from that sequence of events to ensure that the very best measures are in place. That's the work that's ongoing. We thought it was important to lay that out for Canadians.

I hope people understood my opening comments when I said very clearly that in the month of June, when CSIS became aware of some of this concerning information, they immediately took all of the necessary measures to ensure that the threat was managed or mitigated; I may not be using the right technical term. The RCMP were involved as well. Then we saw the successful arrest on the 28th of July. These people remain in custody, in jail. Their bail was denied. There will be a prosecution.

In our system, and you know this very well, Mr. Gerretsen, that should be the objective in terms of keeping Canadians safe. I'm confident that with this case, once the details come out in a trial, I hope, and once a jury or a judge is able to evaluate the evidence, Canadians will understand, perhaps, how these cases can be successfully handled.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm sure the two former Crown prosecutors who are sitting at this table would understand that very well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you said,

that it “came to our attention in June”.

The chronology also shows that CSIS became aware of the threat in June 2024. We know that the video that led to all of this dates from 2015. It took nine years for CSIS to become aware of it.

Can you explain why the security services did not become aware of the video until June 2024?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That is a completely reasonable question, Mr. Fortin, and I understand why you are asking it.

To make sure everything is very clear, I'm going to ask Mr. Larkin to answer. He explained to me exactly why we cannot comment on the alleged video.

Mr. Larkin, can you quickly explain the context to Mr. Fortin?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

In relation to the emergence in the media of a video, it would be very difficult and irresponsible for me to speak specifically to the video. We have an ongoing criminal prosecution but we also have an active ongoing investigation.

Monsieur Fortin, it's very difficult to speak directly to any evidence or any information that may prejudice the criminal prosecution.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, but I don't have much time.

I understand that we can't talk about the video, and I'm not asking you to talk about it. I'm asking whether you really only found out about the video in June 2024 or if you knew about it before.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, Mr. Fortin, I want to be very careful.

I can tell you, as I said in my comments, that the government was made aware of this high-level threat in June. However, the details of who had access to such and such a document or such and such evidence—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I'm just asking for the date, Minister. Did you really become aware of it in June 2024, or were you aware of it before that?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The problem, Mr. Fortin, is that this is precisely the kind of information that could be part of the evidence in a criminal trial, as Mr. Larkin said. I was advised to be very careful about that kind of detail.