Evidence of meeting #116 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ted Gallivan  Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
Vanessa Lloyd  Interim Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Commissioner Bryan Larkin  Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Harpreet S. Kochhar  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Shawn Tupper  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Ms. Damoff, thank you for the question.

I'm happy to see you as well at this committee again. You did important work here, in your role as a parliamentary secretary, on many of these issues.

Our government has sought to increase resources, for example, to CSIS. One of the most significant investments in both technology and capacity at CSIS happened in budget 2024 a few months ago. I think all of us should be very proud as parliamentarians and of our colleagues in the other place as well for adopting Bill C-70, which gave, for the first time in decades, new authorities to CSIS in a digital age.

To the comments about the existence of videos on the dark web, I think it's important, Ms. Damoff, for people to understand that I hear this from the security agencies. I have never, myself, been on the dark web, looking for these kinds of videos. It's called the dark web precisely because these kinds of videos don't normally come with credits and contact information at the end of them, so the idea that there's some simple way that security agencies and partners around the world are able to have access to the sickeningly thousands and millions of images of this kind of thing is why partnerships are so important. That's why working with the 150 other countries that Vanessa described is the best way for CSIS and for its partners in the RCMP and CBSA to do this work.

They need access to the technology. They need legislative authorities, which this Parliament gave them a few months ago, which is terrific, and they need their government to support them with the funds necessary to modernize. I believe that work is being done.

I'm lucky enough, with this super interesting job I have, to see that work up close every week and every month. As I said in my opening comments, Ms. Damoff, I was briefed by CSIS on July 24. When Deputy Commissioner Larkin and his colleagues, Mark Flynn and Commissioner Duheme, updated me on July 28 that these people were in custody and that a successful arrest had been made, it reminded me of the remarkable work done by these women and men in the agencies represented here, of the danger of their work and of the value of working constructively with partners around the world.

If we're not constructive and if we're reckless in releasing information, discussing origins of information and commenting on media reports of certain images and on the existence of evidence that may end up forming part of a criminal prosecution, we'll increasingly be unable to get that information, and we won't look like the reliable partner that we are with those agencies.

I heard from the director of MI6 himself, the chief, in London, about how much he values the work that CSIS does and the information that CSIS gives MI6. I thought it was reassuring for Canadians to know that somebody as interesting in the world as the chief, who would be C in the films we've all seen.... When Sir Richard Moore told me that MI6 is absolutely dependent on CSIS and other partners, it told me the system is working quite well.

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I just wanted to add, though I know my time is up, Mr. Chair, that the Conservatives voted against every investment that we've made in these security agents over the last nine years.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Thank you, Minister. I wish you safe travels. Thank you for being here and for your forbearance in staying with us a little longer.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, thank you, and thanks to colleagues.

I look forward to seeing you in a few weeks. I'll be in your province, in the great city of Nanaimo, in 10 days.

Thank you, colleagues, for taking time in the middle of a non-sitting week to join us.

Thank you for the invitation.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

B.C. is the best province to come to. Thank you.

We will suspend for a couple of minutes. We'll bring in another witness.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting back to order.

On this panel, we have Mr. Harpreet S. Kochhar, deputy minister, from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration joining us, as well as all the other people we've been breaking in all morning.

We will start a fresh round of questions. This will be a six-minute round.

We'll start with Mr. Motz, please. No. I'm sorry. We'll start with Mr. Caputo. You have six minutes, please.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I'm sorry, Chair. I thought that had been communicated to you.

Thank you all to the witnesses.

I see that Mr. Kochhar is joining us.

This is for anybody on the panel. When was this individual, the accused—I'm not going to mention his name—first flagged?

Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Mr. Chair, the initial contact that we had with this person was when he submitted his application as a temporary resident visitor visa in 2017.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Was he flagged at that point as a concern?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar

No. It was just the first interaction that we had.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

When did he first come to the attention of security or intelligence authorities as somebody who should be flagged, as someone we would have concerns about, potentially terrorist concerns?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar

Mr. Chair, what I would say in that regard is that, in a way, when we are doing our immigration procedure, we regularly go through the initial screening, as well as the other screening through biometrics. That's when we work with our security partners to see if there are any things that are any flags on that one.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

The information we have is that, in December 2017, he was initially refused a visitor visa. Is that correct?

August 28th, 2024 / 11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar

That is correct, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Do we know why he was refused that?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar

I don't have the details, but the folks who are actually.... The visa is rejected due to multiple reasons, whether there is incomplete documentation or whether there is missing information, but the person who is evaluating is not satisfied with what is provided, so there are multiple reasons for that.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Do we know if he was rejected based on security reasons?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar

To my knowledge, that was not the case, because when he applied again in 2018 as a visitor visa, he was approved.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Okay.

Sir, are you able to confirm to this committee, in writing in follow-up to this meeting, that this rejection wasn't for a security reason?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Dr. Harpreet S. Kochhar

I'll have to actually confirm those things in terms of that. Yes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

If you don't have the answer today, could you please provide that in writing to this committee so that we can be aware.

If my understanding is correct, this individual was flagged on a number of occasions. This is for anybody at the table, but maybe this is best answered by CSIS. When was the first time that he was flagged as a security risk?

11:20 a.m.

Interim Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Vanessa Lloyd

Mr. Chair, as per the details in the chronology and in the material that's been put to the committee today, the first instance when the Canadian Security Intelligence Service became aware that this individual could pose a potential threat was in June 2024, so in June of this year.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I don't mean to be and perhaps I'm being too direct, but I'll be direct. Is that not a concern, a failure, when we think that somebody who is in a video, publicly...? I know there's been a lot of discussion about whether we can discuss the contents of that video, but this person clearly was the subject matter of a depiction that was of serious concern. This person was ultimately granted citizenship. This person was on Canadian soil for six years. Is there not some failure that we didn't know about his activities beforehand?

11:25 a.m.

Interim Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Vanessa Lloyd

Mr. Chair, again, thank you for the question.

I would respectfully disagree with the premise that there was a failure in this case. As referenced earlier by our minister, there are several lines of defence—security screening programs are one—and they do begin before people arrive in Canada, as they come to our border and also once they have arrived in Canada.

I would say that the third line of defence, which is national security investigations, in this case was very successful.

I can again assure the committee that as soon as CSIS had that information, we acted, we assessed, and we mitigated the threat in conjunction with our security partners.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I have no doubt that CSIS acted and acted accordingly. From what I can see, it did an excellent job, as did the RCMP. Obviously, we commend them for their work.

As an outsider looking in, when I see that somebody arrived on Canadian soil in 2017, after obvious ties to ISIS, that they were given citizenship in 2023 or 2024, and then, despite those earlier ties, they only came to our attention in 2024, that gives me cause for concern. It begs the question, has anybody else slipped through the cracks in this way?