Evidence of meeting #116 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ted Gallivan  Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
Vanessa Lloyd  Interim Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Commissioner Bryan Larkin  Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Harpreet S. Kochhar  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Shawn Tupper  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 116 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Before we begin, I would like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Use only black, approved earpieces. The former grey earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from the microphone at all times. When you're not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose. Thank you all for your co-operation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. To ensure that the meeting runs smoothly, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For members in the room, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The committee clerk and I will manage the speaking order as well as we can, and we appreciate your understanding in this regard.

This is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on August 13, the committee is meeting to study the review of the foiled terrorist plot in Toronto and of the security screening process for permanent residence and citizenship application.

I want to remind members that there is currently a section 517 publication ban in place. A section 517 publication ban prohibits the publication of any information, evidence or representations made at or in anticipation of a bail hearing. Any bail conditions, reasons of the bail court and any evidence or materials relied upon at the bail hearing are prohibited from disclosure.

I'd now like to welcome the witnesses. Appearing today, we have the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc, Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs.

Welcome, Minister.

From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Ted Gallivan, executive vice-president, on behalf of the president. From the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, we have Vanessa Lloyd, interim director. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Shawn Tupper, deputy minister. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Bryan Larkin, deputy commissioner, specialized policing services.

For the second hour, we will have a slight change in the witnesses.

I'd now like to invite the minister to make opening remarks.

Please go ahead, sir.

10 a.m.

Beauséjour New Brunswick

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Mr. Chair, thank you.

Good morning, colleagues. Thank you for being here this morning to discuss this important issue. Your chair has introduced my colleagues, senior officials who are joining me this morning. Some of us are old hands at this table, but Vanessa tells me that as our interim director of CSIS, it's her first time before this parliamentary committee.

Vanessa, welcome to this important part of our parliamentary democracy. Thank you for joining us.

As members are aware, the investigation and arrest of these individuals are the result of the efforts of Canada's national security, intelligence and law enforcement partners. At the very beginning, I would like to take the opportunity, as I have on other occasions, to commend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Canada Border Services Agency and their partners, the Ontario Provincial Police, the Toronto regional police service, the York Regional Police, the Peel Regional Police and the Durham Regional Police Service for their outstanding work together on this important case. The arrest of these two individuals is a great example of outstanding police and intelligence work.

As new information became available, our national security partners acted quickly to keep Canadians safe. While I will gladly provide the committee with as much information as possible, of course, understanding Canadians' obvious interest in answers to these many questions, we must remember that we should have these discussions in a manner that does not impair the Crown's ability to prosecute these accused persons or the police services' ability to investigate any or all of these circumstances in their judgment if they deem it to be necessary to continue those investigations.

As I said, all Canadians deserve answers and transparency. That is precisely what all of us aim to provide today. This morning I submitted to the committee a chronology of events, in English and French, that was worked on by the security agencies represented with me at the table and, of course, by our Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship colleagues as well.

Members will note that the chronology shows it was only in June of this year that CSIS became aware of the potential threat posed by these subjects. For greater precision, I was informed by CSIS on July 24 of this year, in a briefing where senior officials of the RCMP were also present, that CSIS had been assessing the threat from these individuals based on recent intelligence. Upon learning this information, CSIS took immediate measures to assess and obviously mitigate the threat.

I was assured of, and briefed on, the close surveillance of the threat, including at the appropriate time by members of the RCMP, who were positioned to act on any indicators—any indicators—of an escalating or imminent threat. As you know, these individuals were arrested on July 28 of this year and are now charged with nine serious offences, including terrorism-related offences, and are currently incarcerated, remanded into custody.

This is the way the investigative and national security system should work.

That said, an important question is how these people ended up in Canada.

Security screening is the first but not the only line of defence against actors seeking to enter or gain status in Canada in an attempt to harm our citizens or national interests.

A screening is done in three stages: before a person gets to Canada, at the border and sometimes once the person is in Canada.

Before someone travels to Canada, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, the Canada Border Services Agency and CSIS work closely together to conduct security screenings of foreign nationals.

Based on risk indicators, IRCC determines which applications require an enhanced security screening by the CBSA or CSIS. The two agencies use a variety of techniques and methodologies, and also rely on a robust network of international partners to carry out these assessments.

All people wishing to enter Canada are subjected to a CBSA screening, and they must prove that they meet the entry requirements.

Decisions are made based on the information available at the time of entry.

Officials in my department and at IRCC are in the process of reviewing the files of the two individuals to understand specifically what information was available at the time the decisions were made.

Once we have these facts, we will move quickly to make the necessary changes to strengthen the system, if need be.

What is important for Canadians to know is that our security services operate continuously, seeking out threats within Canada and threats that may come to us from abroad, and then they respond quickly and effectively. The fact that these two individuals are in jail and facing serious criminal charges reflects the outstanding work done by the RCMP and their partners.

Our government's broader counterterrorism efforts are designed to detect and prevent terrorism activities obviously at the earliest opportunity. Together with our security and law enforcement partners, our government will continue to prevent, detect, disrupt and respond to any suspected terrorism threats and activities and will hold accountable those persons who may seek to undertake such activities.

With that, Mr. Chair, thank you for your invitation.

I imagine most of you have missed me a lot over the summer. You must be very excited to see me. Looking at your smiling faces I can see that this is a very happy reunion, and I'm looking forward to our conversation that will follow.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Minister.

We will now start our questions with Mr. Caputo for six minutes.

Go ahead, please, sir.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. I echo your thanks to our security services and responders for foiling what sounds like what would have been a serious terrorist attack that would have impacted Canadians.

Now, Minister, to be clear here, this person who is charged with terrorism offences with his son arrived in February 2018. Is that correct? I'm going off the information you gave me, Minister.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Yes. On February 5, 2018, the subject entered Canada at Pearson Airport.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

He made an asylum claim in June 2018. Is that correct?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Yes. He went to an immigration department office and made that asylum claim.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

He was granted citizenship in May 2024. Is that correct?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

That's correct.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

He was provided a work permit in September 2018. That was the initial basis on which he was able to legally be in Canada. Is that right?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Yes. That appears to be correct given the chronology before the committee.

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Okay, so he was a permanent resident in September 2021. Is that right?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

That's correct.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you.

You wrote me a letter on August 12 of this year stating none of this, so I'm just going to note here for the record that you said, Minister, that we couldn't comment on any of this and then, lo and behold, here today we have this vast chronology that appeared just before the committee meeting. It seems odd that you would say you couldn't give us any of this information, and then here today we have all of this information from you.

What we have here, Minister, is obviously a colossal failure. I'll be direct. How did somebody slide under the radar for so long, from 2018 to 2024?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

With respect to your initial comment, you're right. In August I thought it was important, and I asked our officials, as did my colleague, Marc Miller, to produce the detailed chronology. I wanted to make sure that when we came to this committee and were able to talk about this publicly, we had the precise chronology that we could all rely on—

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

That's not what you said here. That's not what you said in your letter, though, sir. You said in your letter that there was an ongoing investigation, and yet here we have this information.

I don't want to focus on that. I want to focus on this: How did this person fly under the radar for six years?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

This person entered Canada on the dates you described, Mr. Caputo, and as reflected in the chronology. The security services—CBSA, CSIS and the immigration department—did all of the existing security checks and the normal security checks, including biometrics by the RCMP on a number of occasions. There was no information at the time those decisions were made that would have come to light to trigger what happened earlier this spring in terms of CSIS's investigation.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

In fact, we actually had to hear from a foreign government about this. Isn't that right? CSIS got information from a foreign government, as reported by Global.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

You have been, Mr. Caputo, at this committee for some time. You know that the intelligence agencies are not going to ever discuss the sources of intelligence or the information they get from partner agencies. First of all, it may be illegal to disclose that, but it's also very dangerous to the women and men who do that work, either at CSIS or in their partner agencies, to confirm the sources of this information.

I am not able to give a definitive answer on that question, and you know that very well.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Equally as troubling as that answer is the fact that we as Canadians did not have this intelligence for ourselves. How is it that foreign governments know more than we do on Canadian soil?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I don't accept the premise of that comment. Every intelligence agency collaborates with partners around the world. The most effective and the most renowned intelligence co-operation would be the Five Eyes countries, of which, as you know, Canada is a member. The information is shared between the security services on an hourly and daily basis, precisely because it makes our country safer, but we can also contribute, and often do in the great work done by CSIS, to the security of our partner countries as well.

That's a very normal security process that you understand very well.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

With all due respect, Minister, you need to stop deflecting and start divulging. At this point here, you're saying.... You're not even confirming it. How is it that a foreign government knew more than we did in Canada about somebody who was on Canadian soil for six years? How is that?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Caputo, perhaps I wasn't clear in the previous answer. You understand very well—I'm happy to ask the interim director of CSIS to explain the reasons—why it is inappropriate, if not illegal, to answer questions around specific intelligence products and more so because this is an ongoing criminal case. Some of this evidence the prosecutors, in their judgment, may decide to bring before a court or before a jury at some future prosecution—

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I'm not talking about the evidence. I'm talking about how the evidence was gathered. How is it that a foreign government knew more than our own government? That's what I'm talking about, not the evidence, sir.

At the end of the day, this is what we have. We have somebody who came in here and was here for six years flying under the radar. We don't know whether this happened before, and we have no assurances from you on whether or not this will happen again. You've deflected, you've diverted, and you've denied. That is absolutely inexcusable to this point. Canadians deserve answers and we are getting none.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Caputo.

The minister can answer, if he wishes.