Public Safety Committee on Aug. 28th, 2024

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Let's make it five minutes, not 10 or 15.

We are suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting back to order.

We will start a new round of questions, with a six-minute round, with Mr. Brock.

You have six minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to start with refuting what I believe to be a false narrative at this committee. I've listened very carefully to my Liberal colleagues. I've listened to some of the commentary from these witnesses. I guess to a Canadian observer who is not entirely familiar with the circumstances that surrounded the creation of this particular meeting, one would think that all is well in Canada and that everything is working as it's intended to work: that CSIS is working appropriately; that the CBSA is working appropriately; that law enforcement's working appropriately; and that the government is doing its job. That can't be further from the truth.

The number one responsibility of Justin Trudeau and his government and the number one responsibility of the CBSA and of CSIS is to keep Canadians safe, not some of the time, but all of the time. What has happened here is that we were within a hair's breadth—minutes, hours or potentially days away—of a mass casualty event on the Toronto Jewish community.

Clearly, this wasn't hatched overnight by the two accused. They were probably planning for days, weeks or months, all under the radar of CSIS, all under the radar of immigration, all under the radar of CBSA and all under the radar of our law enforcement. Therefore, I have one phrase to say to this committee and to Canadians: Thank God for France. Thank God for French intelligence, which gave CSIS the tip. This wasn't a national in France who was planning something against Canadians. This was an individual whom we granted Canadian citizenship to and who completely fell under the radar map until a tip went to CSIS, and then CSIS got the RCMP involved, and we stopped what could have been a significant mass casualty event.

I'm sorry to all the witnesses. You failed in your responsibilities to keep us safe. You didn't do your jobs. But for the grace of God and good French intelligence, they are behind bars, where they should be.

I listened very carefully to Mr. McCrorie's words. We have a “robust” and “thorough” system. Our reviews of individuals coming into our country take time. You talked about what Canadians expect. Well, sir, I can tell you that I have reports from news media that strongly suggest that the two accused in custody is by no means a one-off.

In fact, I'm going to read from this report. This is from the National Post a few weeks ago: American authorities “recently announced the apprehension of 233 terrorist suspects seeking entry from Canada into the United States.”

Were you aware of that, CSIS?

[Vanessa Lloyd]

I'm sorry. I apologize. I'm not familiar with the direct reference that you may be alleging to in the media.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

How about Mr. McCrorie? Was CBSA aware of this?

[Aaron McCrorie]

Again, like my colleague, I'm not aware of the direct reference that you're speaking—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There were 233 would-be terrorists walking the streets of Canada, all under the radar map of this Prime Minister, this government, of our professional public service and of our security agency, who wanted to get into the United States and wreak havoc in that country, and they were walking freely.

I support my friend and colleague, Mr. Motz's, assessment. We do have a broken system. I hope to dear God, for the sake of the safety of Canadians, that you identify very quickly and robustly where the breakdown happened, and fire the individuals who didn't do their jobs.

Ms. Damoff talked about how difficult it is to access the dark web. Do you know what? Canadians aren't expecting Ms. Damoff to protect us. We're expecting that of CSIS, law enforcement and the government, who have access to the dark web. This should have been on your radar map, and you failed us.

There again, but for the grace of God and good intelligence from France....

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Does anyone wish to respond?

Go ahead.

[Vanessa Lloyd]

Mr. Chair, I would like to repeat my earlier testimony. I would refute the premise that this was a failure in that the good work of CSIS and our law enforcement partners between the time when CSIS received the information in June of 2024 and the time of the arrests on July 28, and the fact that these individuals are in custody, is testimony to the good work and professionalism of those officers in all of our agencies.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We will go now to Mr. Gerretsen for six minutes, please.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm surprised that Mr. Brock is so fond of France, considering the fact that he recently went there and got immediately called back to Canada by his boss after he took two plane tickets, I think, to finally make it there.

Nonetheless, I do want to ensure that the witnesses today know that not everybody around this table, or indeed Canadians, feels the same way that Mr. Brock does. What you just saw there was his stunt for social media, which he will use later and most likely to raise money for the Conservative Party of Canada. It was nothing more than that.

All of the focus today seems to have been on the fact that individuals entered into Canada who had a plan all along. As to whether or not that's true, we will let the courts determine it and deal with it appropriately. My question is this: Is it not true that for a lot of people who become radicalized, it happens to them after they're already here? You don't have to be somebody who is radicalized and enters Canada. You can actually already be in Canada or a Canadian citizen to become radicalized. Is that true?

[Vanessa Lloyd]

Mr. Chair, as I believe we mentioned earlier this morning, the work of security services and the national security agency is continuous. Again, as I mentioned earlier, that is with regard to threats that come from without Canada and from within.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

So it's also from within Canada. That answers my question. It wasn't actually that long ago, I believe in 2019, that in Kingston a very similar circumstance to exactly what we're discussing here today occurred. An individual had become radicalized and had set up a plan to commit a terrorist act. As a result of another informant, who happened to be an FBI informant, that plot did not occur. The house that this individual had been supposedly bringing materials to in order to prepare a bomb was located three blocks from the elementary school that I went to when I was a child.

I want to thank you for the incredible work you do to keep us safe. We have been sitting here subject to especially that last rant by Mr. Brock, as though you are failures. You are not failures. You are keeping Canadians safe. In terms of what I had to listen to there moments ago, knowing what you know, and knowing how you know the processes and how they work, for you to have just sat there and taken what he said to you shows an incredible amount of discipline, at least from the position that I'm sitting in. You should all be personally commended for being able to do that.

Notwithstanding that, Mr. Brock tried to imply that there were many Canadians or people from Canada who the U.S. had turned away for people that he was identifying as terrorists.

Can you tell us how many people the CBSA turns away in a given year from entering into Canada?

[Aaron McCrorie]

Mr. Chair, as I noted previously, there are probably two fundamental moments in which we are turning people away. One is prior to embarkation, where our national targeting centre is reviewing the—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

No, I understand. I have a limited amount of time. How many people? I know the answer, if you don't.

[Aaron McCrorie]

There were 7,500 “no boards” in 2023, and then over 37,000 were allowed to leave—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Over 37,000 people. That would be just over 100 a day the CBSA is turning away for people entering into Canada.

Mr. Brock paints a very different picture. He paints a picture as though the border from Canada going into the United States is open and free for everyone to travel every way. You folks and the agencies and the departments that you represent do an incredible job if you're turning away 38,000 people within the last year from entering.

Notwithstanding the hyped-up rhetoric and what you've been subjected to listening to, I just want to conclude by thanking you for the incredible work that you do. We never want to see situations like this arise. We never want to allow people who have plans or who would like to act in a manner that has been described as happening to enter into this country. However, at least when somebody does slip through, you're still there because, as you said, you have multiple checks and balances and multiple layers in place to protect Canadians. I'm not only seeing it here. I saw it in my hometown where this happened in 2019. Because of the relationships you have with other countries, because of the collaboration you have with other countries, despite the politics that goes on in this room, we are safer, and I want to thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.

Does anyone wish to respond?

It appears not.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back to Mr. Gerretsen's last sentence. He said that, thanks to your good work, we are safer than we would be if you weren't on the job, and I'm inclined to agree. Where our opinions differ, however, is that I don't think the existing level of security inside Canada's borders is adequate. We need to do better.

I may be wrong. I'm no expert on immigration or national security, but the situation before us today, which is also the focus of our discussions over the next five meetings, seems very worrisome to me. The fact that we can't get answers, even though I fully understand the need for secrecy surrounding the judicial process, is no reassurance to the public. Furthermore, and I say this with all due respect, the answers that we've received so far offer no reassurance to Quebeckers or Canadians either.

Both individuals, I mean the father and son, were arrested and are now incarcerated. I don't know the conditions of their incarceration. Is there any way to find out whether they are segregated or living alongside other criminals inside a penitentiary? Can anyone answer that question?

[Aiesha Zafar]

Mr. Chair, we don't have the expertise as witnesses here to be able to respond to that question.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

So they could be sharing a cell or in contact with other criminals or terrorists. That worries me. I don't know if it would be possible, maybe at a later meeting, to get an answer to that question, I mean, what was done with the two individuals arrested. I think that's important to know.

Are other family members of these individuals, the father and son, here in Canada? Have other members of their family been subject to legal proceedings or checks? Can anyone answer that question?

[Aiesha Zafar]

Mr. Chair, due to the ongoing criminal proceedings, we can't provide any more details around this case.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

It makes you wonder why the Liberals suggested these meetings if they knew from the start that we wouldn't be able to get answers to important questions.

I don't mind if we don't discuss the case of these two individuals and look at the process more generally, but even then, it all seems a little vague. You tell us that the process is perfect, it works great, and you don't need more staff or a bigger budget. Everything is perfect, everything is fine and nothing is broken. However, we aren't living in the land of make believe; there are terrorists are walking our streets.

Mr. Brock mentioned that 233 alleged terrorists tried to enter the United States. I had some questions about that. I may have missed some information. For example, I don't know the time period involved. Obviously, those individuals were denied entry, at least, I would imagine so. But I haven't received an answer on that.

Do you have any answers on that, at least? I don't think it relates to the two individuals arrested.

[Aiesha Zafar]

I'm unfamiliar with the specific reference the member made. However, I can speak to the fact that we as the IRCC, with our partners at the CBSA, work very closely with our partners in the U.S. In fact, we meet every two weeks, biweekly, with them at senior levels to look at issues related to migration and border security at our shared border.