Public Safety Committee on March 3rd, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for confirming that.

In your terms of service, you state that “Fundraising campaigns relating to misinformation, hate speech, violence and more are prohibited by our Terms of Service.” I want to focus on the misinformation part, because it became quite clear from the middle of January onwards that this convoy was rapidly attracting every single conspiracy theory known to this country, like a magnet attracts iron filings. There were all kinds of expletives used about our Prime Minister. Increasingly violent language was being used.

So how was it, with all of the documented evidence of misinformation.... It was reported repeatedly by the media, put on their own social media platforms, on YouTube videos and Facebook livestreams. How did that not constitute misinformation to your company?

[Kim Wilford]

Mr. Chair, in response to that, what I would say is that when this campaign was created, it complied with our terms of service. Our original diligence and our initial discussions with the organizer did not reveal any issues. We had constructive dialogue over how the funds were going to be disbursed.

Our teams were constantly reviewing all of the information, but there was a lot of misinformation, and that is why, in order to be very responsible in how we were handling this, we reached out to local law enforcement in response to their statement on January 31, to understand what was actually occurring, and upon receiving information over the next few days that showed it was now violating our terms of service—it had crossed the line and was now something that we could not support on the platform—we removed it on February 4.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that confirmation.

I want to focus on the conversations you had with the Ottawa Police Service because there is a narrative out there that this was a peaceful protest. I agree that it started off with I think noble intentions. I think a lot of people were there protesting and they wanted to peacefully assemble to make their voices heard. That is a cherished right in our democracy and the foundation of what we all believe in, but I want to dig down on the specifics.

When Ottawa law enforcement was in conversation with you in those early days of February, can you please provide some detail on what exactly they were reporting to your company that gave you concern? I think we need to have these details to understand what it was that led to you making that decision to pull this fundraiser.

[Kim Wilford]

Mr. Chair, what I would say in response to that is that I, myself, did not have any direct discussions with members of law enforcement. A number of individuals on our team did engage with them, and we all discussed the information being received. It was stating that there were acts of violence. There was damage and destruction. Harassment was occurring. Upon that information, we made the decision, along with the fact that our own internal discussions with the campaign organizer had changed, to remove this from our platform.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

So in a sense—and please correct me if I'm wrong—in GoFundMe's opinion, by February 4 this was no longer a peaceful protest and instead was an occupation.

[Kim Wilford]

What I would say, Mr. Chair, is that in GoFundMe's view, on February 4 this became a violation of our terms of service, this campaign, and we removed it from our platform.

[Juan Benitez]

Mr. Chair, if I may, I'll add to Ms. Wilford's comments.

I appreciate the fact that it's coming up here in the committee that peaceful protest is cherished and that this campaign originally started as something that, by all known circumstances at that time, was a peaceful protest. I think that reinforces how unique and complex and unprecedented this situation was, and how quickly it evolved. We believe that we put in place all of our tools and actions that were appropriate to our terms of service, and we believe that given what we knew at the time all of the decisions were appropriate.

There was this change that occurred, a very poignant change where things went from something that seemed okay and permissible to our terms of service to something that was not okay and no longer permissible, and at the rate of change that was happening and the amount of information that was circulating, was very difficult to coalesce. So again, we feel confident in our policies and procedures and making the decision that we did to support originally and then closely monitor the situation, collaborate with local authorities, and then ultimately notice something change and then revoke the campaign based on violation of our terms of service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, colleagues. We're at the end of the first round.

Doing a quick calculation of the time, if I cut a minute from everybody in the second round, we'll finish pretty well at the top of the hour. Is that acceptable? Good.

Let's begin with Mr. Van Popta. You have four minutes.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being with us here today, and for sharing your knowledge and experience with us as this committee works it way through some pretty tough questions.

My first question is for GoFundMe.

Mr. Benitez, you said in your opening statement—and it's been repeated a few times since then—that your organization supports peaceful protests, provided they are within your terms of service. I notice that you said peaceful protests, not necessarily lawful protests. I wonder if you could make a distinction there.

For example, let's say there was a GoFundMe campaign to support people protesting the harvesting of old growth forest in my home province of British Columbia, even if that were against a court-ordered injunction. There could be a protest against pipeline development, even though it's against the laws of trespass. In this case, it was a peaceful protest that did not comply with the city of Ottawa parking bylaws.

What's the distinction between lawful and peaceful?

[Juan Benitez]

The circumstances surrounding the campaigns on our platform are often very specific. Our organizers create campaigns on GoFundMe and they've created hundreds and thousands of them; in fact, millions of them have been created since our inception over a decade ago.

The circumstances can be very specific around what the organizer says, what they're communicating to the donors on our platform and what the specific use of funds may be, etc.

Unlawful activity is prohibited by our terms of service. When we become aware that activity on the platform is in violation of law or of our terms of service, we will remove it from our platform.

That consultation with local law enforcement and authorities is what helped us understand that real-time, on the ground information, which lead us to the determination of violation of the terms of service here for the "freedom convoy" campaign as well.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Here's a follow-up question. Wasn't the “freedom convoy” in contravention of local laws right from the very beginning? Was that not part of your due diligence process in determining whether or not to accept this as a project?

[Kim Wilford]

Our review of the fundraiser did not suggest that it was in violation of any local law. We looked at the campaign content to look at how the funds were going to be used. At that time, it passed all of our checks, and our discussions with the organizer also supported that it was going to acceptable within our terms of service.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Good. Thank you.

This is another question for GoFundMe.

If and when we amend our laws, so that crowdfunding platforms need to report to FINTRAC, how will your practices change? What's that going to do to your business model? Will there be any significant changes?

[Kim Wilford]

What I would say in response to that is we would welcome the opportunity to work with the government to figure out the exact issues and concerns and how we can help address them, while still supporting the beautiful world that occurs on GoFundMe every minute of every day, with people coming together from all parts of the world to help one another meet their needs and realize their dreams.

We will consistently and continuously not only meet our obligations under the laws that apply to us, but always work to operate a bit above that. To the extent it is determined that we should be regulated by FINTRAC, we will gladly assist and co-operate. Our services will continue and so will our internal policies and teams, evolving and meeting what's required.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I'll now turn the microphone over to Ms. Damoff, who will have four minutes. The floor is yours.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to ask my first question of the representatives from Stripe.

Before I do, I thank GoFundMe for all of the information you have provided with us thus far, but I only have four minutes.

To the folks from Stripe, PayPal cut ties with the crowdfunding site GiveSendGo after it was found that funds that were raised on GiveSendGo were used on the attack on the U.S. Capitol in January 2021. Stripe is now GiveSendGo's payment processor.

What have crowdfunding companies learned from January 6, and what gives you the reassurance to continue as a partner for GiveSendGo?

We know that GoFundMe found that the occupation in our country did not meet their requirements, but GiveSendGo continued to raise funds for them and you are their payment processor.

[Katherine M. Carroll]

Thanks for the question. I can address that.

As a financial infrastructure company, we enable companies and other organizations to connect to the online economy. As such, we take a very cautious approach to any decisions to terminate that access.

In the first instance, we generally look to governments in the jurisdictions where we operate to make determinations about what activity should be permissible and when that activity should be restricted.

We work with a broad range of organizations of many different political views across the spectrum, and we believe generally that our—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Sorry, with respect, we're not talking about political affiliation here, though. We're talking abut a crowdfunding site that was raising funds for an insurrection in the United States, and then was used after another crowdfunding site determined that they didn't meet their terms of service. It accepted those funds.

What kinds of policies do you have in place? PayPal cut their ties with GiveSendGo, and yet you're still allowing payments to be processed there.

[Katherine M. Carroll]

I understand. Thanks for the follow up.

GiveSendGo, like most private funding platforms, supports a broad range of campaigns. As I said, we take a very cautious approach to terminating a party's access to financial infrastructure. We do, at times, for GiveSendGo and for other platforms, terminate individual campaigns on those platforms that we determine don't comply with our terms of service, including our long-standing policy against supporting businesses that promote violence—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I have only a minute left, so I'm going to cut you off because I'd like to ask PayPal. It's interesting that other platforms found that the occupation in Canada violated their terms of service, and yet Stripe did not.

I'm just wondering, PayPal, you cut your ties with GiveSendGo. Could you perhaps provide us with a bit of information as to why you did that?

[Kevin Pearce]

Mr. Chair, I have to admit that my being here in Canada, the actions taken or the discussions were in the U.S., so I'm not aware of the particulars of the relationship. But I can say in general that we regularly assess activity on our platforms against our “acceptable use” policy, and we carefully review account holders for any violations.

As I say, I'm not aware of the particulars, but I can say, as you've noted, that our relationship with GiveSendGo did cease after the events in Washington in January 2021.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you. The committee owes you 12 and a half seconds, Ms. Damoff.

We move to Ms. Michaud. You are going to have to be so efficient. You have a million questions, and a minute and a half. Go ahead.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try to keep it brief.

My question is for Mr. Benitez, from GoFundMe.

In your opening statement, Mr. Benitez, you said you did a review of where the donations to the freedom convoy were coming from. What worried us, at the beginning and throughout the convoy, was foreign interference and the fact that donations were being made anonymously and we didn't know where they were coming from. As I understand it, you have data on your donors, as well as the ability to determine where the funds are coming from. You said that 88% of the donations were from Canadians.

Do you know where the other 12% came from? Do you have indicators to help you categorize users, or donors, in order to raise a red flag when similar user profiles begin donating to similar, potentially problematic campaigns?

I would've liked to ask the PayPal representative the same question, given the platform's experience with donations that helped fund the January 6 attack on the Capitol. Those same donors may have contributed to the freedom convoy, since they tend to be drawn to campaigns of that nature.

In less than 30 seconds, I'd like the GoFundMe representative to answer the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You'll have to be very quick, please. You have 20 seconds.