Public Safety Committee on Sept. 26th, 2024

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, High Commissioner, for being with us.

It's frustrating, as members of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, that we have yet to really receive any idea of how this could have been prevented and what we need to be doing moving forward, despite multiple ministers and former ministers coming.

I would like to move the following motion on another very important issue.

I move that:

Given that sexual assaults have increased by 75% and sexual violations against children have increased by nearly 120% over the past nine years;

The committee undertake a study of no fewer than eight meetings on the rise of violent crime, particularly sexual assault and intimate partner violence against women and children in Canada; that the committee invite the Minister of Public Safety and the Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) to appear as part of the study for no less than two hours each, separately; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

Mr. Chair, I have been away from this committee for a year. I'm very honoured to be back. In my absence, I was quite concerned about a number of headlines that I had seen in Manitoba and across the country, which inspired me and the committee to put forward this motion today. I hope committee members will take it seriously and we'll support a study on that.

I just want to put on the record, before I wrap up, a few of the stories that had inspired this motion and why I feel it's a critical public safety issue that we study.

For example, in February, all of Manitoba was rocked when we learned of the story that a Manitoba man was charged with first-degree murder in the deaths of his partner and three children. His three children were found deceased in a burning vehicle. It was a horrific week in Manitoba when that was found out. We're a very small community.

In February, a Calgary man was sentenced for killing a three-year-old girl who interrupted him playing a video game. I think you'll recall that as well.

In March, it was reported that six Edmonton children were killed in 2023. It was so bad that first responders were struggling to cope.

It was also reported this past year that the accused in a child sex abuse case was wanted on a Canada-wide arrest warrant, where he had allegedly sexually abused a child while on bail for sexually abusing a child.

Just yesterday, in Manitoba, a convicted child sex offender was released from prison with a high risk to reoffend.

I could go on and on. I have a whole binder of stories just from the past 12 months of what's been happening to women and children in this country. Even right here in Ottawa this year, a hospital reported that it is seeing a 30% increase in people seeking help for sexual assault.

I feel that this is an extremely pressing issue, given the recent statistics. Particularly concerning are sexual violations against children, which are up 120% in the last nine years. I sincerely hope that this committee will take it seriously and agree to study this.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you. I find that the motion is in order.

Mr. Lloyd wishes to speak next.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I want to be very quick because I want everyone to have an opportunity to question our esteemed witness while he's here. I hope we can all co-operate on this very important issue and get this study on the docket, then get back to questioning.

I'm obviously in support of this motion. I think it's a very important motion. I hope that we can all vote for it very quickly and then maybe discuss more of the pertinent details about meetings and witnesses at a subcommittee meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. MacGregor, go ahead.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to my colleagues for bringing forward this motion. It's certainly an issue that is top of mind for a lot of folks. I know that the Standing Committee on the Status of Women is also doing a similar study so, obviously, the fact that two committees are now considering this shows how serious it is. I'm in agreement with the spirit of what's being attempted here. I'm not sure whether I want to specify the number of meetings, so I hope my Conservative colleagues might be open to just leaving that open and not specifying exactly that we have to have no fewer than eight meetings. Maybe we can include language “of up to six”. I know, Mr. Chair, that we're going to have a subcommittee meeting following this, so, hopefully, at that subcommittee meeting we can determine the order in which we want to do our studies.

I indicate my support for this, but before I hand the floor back, a notice was given out for a motion that I want to move later on. I just want to read it into the record:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study examining how addressing gaps in community mental health and substance use health supports, including preventative and early intervention services, can improve public safety in Canada; that both the Minister of Public Safety and Minister of Mental Health and Addictions be invited to testify separately for one hour each in this study; that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House; and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

I would like the subcommittee to look at this motion as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

The motion on the floor specifies eight meetings. If you want to change that, I suggest that you move an amendment.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I will take this opportunity to move an amendment to the motion. Simply, where it references “of no fewer than eight meetings”, I would put “of up to six meetings”. If it looks like, during the course of the study, we need more, I'm totally open to that. I just don't want us to set a minimum number at this point in time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I will go to Mr. Lloyd, followed by Madam Michaud.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I think Mr. MacGregor will agree that language saying “of up to six meetings” will prohibit the committee from adding additional meetings. Won't “of six meetings” instead of the “of up to six meetings” be a better amendment for that?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I will take Mr. Lloyd's advice and reword it to what he stated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

The discussion now is on the amendment.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think this is a very important motion. Sexual violence against women, and children in particular, is an issue that concerns us all. It is a problem in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada.

I agree with Mr. MacGregor's proposal. Let's start with six meetings and then, if we see that we need to go beyond that, we'll make adjustments. I wouldn't put “at least eight meetings”, because that's a lot to start with. Afterward, we can see how many witnesses we have to submit.

I hear people say that another committee is already looking at this issue. I'm always torn when work is duplicated in the House of Commons, when a number of committees are studying the same subjects or issues. Perhaps we should see what kind of work has been done or is being done at the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. Otherwise, I don't necessarily see a problem with this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Go ahead, Ms. Dancho, on the amendment.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate the comments from my colleagues and the support for the motion.

The FEWO study has concluded, and there were a number of recommendations that I reviewed. I want to make sure the studies aren't the same. I think the status of women committee did excellent work there, but there was no focus on children in particular, which I think is missing. We rarely talk about children at committees. Given what I discussed and the knowledge all of us have about challenges being faced by children in our own ridings, particularly with sexual violations and other violence, I think it's a gap for committees across the board that we should address here.

They didn't call the RCMP, our national police force. The RCMP doesn't only do frontline policing, it also does a lot of investigative work. It works with international partners. I think there's a lot we can learn from the RCMP.

However, I agree with the amendment. I really appreciate the spirit of collaboration and the openness to have more meetings if necessary. I agree with the amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Is there any further discussion on the amendment?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Ms. O'Connell, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, High Commissioner. I really appreciate you being here and your testimony today.

When Minister LeBlanc appeared before our committee on this study in the summer, he also spoke about intelligence-sharing relationships between Canada and the U.K., in particular between CSIS and MI6. In your testimony here today, you spoke about challenges that both countries and, in fact, the entire world are facing with similar issues and growing threats in the world. In response to Mr. MacGregor's question, you specifically brought up right-wing extremist violence.

I had been looking into some of this, and I think you're referring to the far-right disorder that had clear Russian involvement. The headline on the article is that former MI6 spies have been saying this. One of the areas, from reading articles in the Guardian, was that one of the far-right mechanisms for creating disorder, mistrust and distrust was to create news outlets on online platforms that look like mainstream American network news and specifically have individuals who are, in this case, U.K. citizens promote and influence Russian interference and Russian media-type messages to impact politics and the democratic institutions in the U.K.

Is this a conversation that's happening as widely in the U.K. government as it is here in Canada?

[Ralph Goodale]

It's a conversation that I think is happening in democratic countries right around the world. This notion of misinformation, disinformation and the difficulty of being able to discern fact from fiction—fake news, as it's often called—is something that democracies everywhere are struggling with.

There's a lot of collaboration between Canada and the U.K. in dealing with this area of foreign interference. It has been a topic in the past among the Five Eyes countries and among the G7 countries. The U.K. perhaps has more experience than most. The U.K. often makes the point that Euro-Atlantic security is a critical priority for them, and the most malevolent actor in the Euro-Atlantic theatre is obviously Putin's Russia. That's evidenced by the awful, brutal and illegal war of aggression in Ukraine.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, High Commissioner. Sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, but I am limited on time.

Given that very dire and dark picture you've just painted that the world is facing with such a brutal dictator influencing democratic institutions in the U.K., in Canada and abroad, and given that very serious testimony, Mr. Chair, I move:

That, given the testimony of the High Commissioner, and the unanimous adoption of the motion moved by Pam Damoff on Thursday, September 19, 2024, to initiate study into Russian-backed interference and far-right disinformation campaigns intended to manipulate the Canadian public, the committee immediately prioritize and begin its study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I find this in order, it being very germane to the topic at hand.

Is there any discussion on this motion?

Ms. Dancho, go ahead.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate the motion.

I believe the motion I put forward today is also very urgent, given the rise of sexual violations against children, the murder of children and what we're seeing with sexual assault against women. Frankly, in the years I've been here—and I think many of us have been on this committee for a while—we have neglected this area of public safety.

I would also note that the ethics committee is also studying a similar motion. I believe that motion says the committee will be studying it immediately. I don't know if the Liberal members have an update of where the ethics committee is on that, but I know that motion indicated some fair amount of urgency. There is some overlap there.

I feel very strongly that my motion is urgent, and it's been neglected as an issue across our committees, particularly this one. While I appreciate the motion, I feel very strongly that my motion is also very urgent.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair. Could we let the witness go so that we can debate this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Are we all good with that?

High Commissioner Goodale, I know it's late in the day there, and I appreciate you spending time with us. It's always delightful to see you. Thank you for being here, and thank you for your excellent testimony today. We will let you go.

[Ralph Goodale]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Ms. O'Connell, please go ahead.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I'll start with Ms. Dancho's points before I get into the substance of my motion and the debate. I don't disagree whatsoever with studying violence against women and children. This is crucially important work and this is precisely why it was a unanimously passed motion. There's no debate there on how important that is.

We must also look at the fact that Russian state actors have potentially been paying influencers in Canada to disrupt our democratic institutions and our public safety. The high commissioner was just here, talking about examples in the U.K. of violent demonstrations that were pushed for by influencers in the U.K. with very serious connections back to Russian state actors.

This committee is sometimes tasked with dealing with multiple security risks and multiple studies at once.

It was just a few months ago that Conservatives stood in the House on a regular basis to talk about foreign interference as being a huge threat to democracy, but now, all of a sudden, when there are connections to Conservatives and Russians, it's no longer a priority to be studied. I find that deeply concerning. I find it deeply concerning that we've approved this study and Conservatives now seem to be backing out of wanting to make it a priority.