Public Safety Committee on Oct. 1st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting 121 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or on Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best as we can.

We're undertaking today the study on Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada. I apologize to the committee, because the notice went out this morning. While it is valid according to the rules, it's not best practice. It had been my intention to send it out on Friday, but due to an error on my part it didn't happen, so I apologize.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on September 19, 2024, the committee is starting its study of Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada.

I now welcome our witnesses for the first hour. From the Russian Canadian Democratic Alliance we have Yuriy Novodvorskiy, founder and administrator, and Guillaume Sirois, counsel. From the Ukrainian Canadian Congress we have Alexandra Chyczij, president.

I now invite Mr. Novodvorskiy and Mr. Sirois to make an opening statement of up to five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Yuriy Novodvorskiy, Founder and Administrator, Russian Canadian Democratic Alliance]

Thank you for your invitation and for addressing the national security threat posed by Russian propaganda and cognitive warfare.

My name is Yuri Novodvorskiy. I am the director of the Russian Canadian Democratic Alliance. I am accompanied by our counsel, Guillaume Sirois.

The RCDA is a volunteer-led, non-profit organization created in the wake of Russia's criminal invasion of Ukraine. Its core mission is to support the development of the Russian-Canadian community around the ideals of democracy, human rights, civil liberties and the rule of law. Opposing the invasion of Ukraine and Putin's regime is a core focus of our organization, along with supporting political prisoners in Russia.

I have three key points that I would like to focus on today.

First, Russia is actively engaged in cognitive warfare against Canada and its allies.

Second, this cognitive warfare is significantly impacting the stability of civil society and institutions in Canada.

Third, this threat has not been taken seriously for too long, and now we are facing the compounded effects of years of Russian propaganda.

I will conclude my presentation with a series of immediate calls to action for your consideration.

Russia has been conducting propaganda campaigns in Canada that are aimed at sowing social division and eroding trust in our institutions, including the media, for years. The goal of these campaigns is to create a divided and distrustful society that is easier for Russia to manipulate and control. Russia seeks to influence how Canadians think and vote, and ultimately to shape Canada's policies to advance its own strategic interests. These include re-establishing a world order aligned with its authoritarian values, dismantling NATO, lifting sanctions and ending Canada's support for Ukraine. These efforts are targeting the Russian-Canadian community and the greater Canadian population, as evidenced by the Tenet Media operation.

Although Canada has shown more resilience to Russian propaganda than our American neighbours, we are already starting to witness its effects. There is declining support for the war in Ukraine, increasing radicalization and social divisions, and eroding trust in our democratic institutions. These have been strategic objectives for Russia since at least the annexation of Crimea in 2014. These narratives, including the Tenet Media operation and during the last two general elections, have directly targeted the Prime Minister, specifically because of his support for Ukraine and his condemnation of Russia's human rights abuses.

Furthermore, these narratives are notably echoed by certain media outlets and at least one political party in Canada, which received close to a million votes in 2021 and is poised to gain even more in the next election. Even if these fringe elements do not succeed, larger parties may be tempted to court their voters by adopting a less robust stance in support of Ukraine, for instance. As we have seen in the neighbouring United States, it is not a question of whether these narratives become part of the mainstream national discourse, but when. By then, it may be too late.

The Canadian videos from Tenet Media have made headlines, but they represent only the tip of the iceberg of Russian propaganda in Canada. Russia has been waging its cognitive warfare in Canada for close to a decade. A foreign nation should not be permitted to shape Canadians' thoughts and policies, especially when this has been an ongoing issue for so long.

The Tenet Media videos about Canada have been viewed over a half million times. If a foreign power chartered a cargo plane to drop 500,000 propaganda leaflets over Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal, criticizing Canadian policies and the Prime Minister and undermining our society and institutions, what would have been the reaction? The Tenet Media operation is much worse than that.

Our institutions are not equipped to respond to or even detect these threats from Russia. We have learned of the Tenet Media operation from a United States indictment, and our government does not want to tell us anything more than what is already public. Without our American allies, this propaganda campaign might never have been detected. Except for public condemnations, our government has seemingly done nothing in retaliation. Vladimir Putin is not deterred by public statements.

As a result, the RCDA has the following calls to action for your consideration.

First, we must address this issue as the national threat it poses. This is not mere disinformation or propaganda. It is cognitive warfare targeting all Canadians, particularly the Russian-Canadian community.

Second, there should be one agency or institution that is clearly responsible and accountable for defending and responding to this threat, coordinating with the other actors involved, such as other democratic nations, CSIS, CSE, Global Affairs Canada, political parties and civil society.

Third, we need to ask the foreign interference commission to examine and assess the events related to Tenet Media. The RCDA already made that request weeks ago, but we are still waiting for a response and no witnesses related to the Tenet Media events are slated to testify before the commission.

Finally, social media platforms provide the infrastructure that has made much of this cognitive warfare possible. As such, they should be held to a higher standard of reporting and managing foreign interference.

In conclusion, we must recognize the severity of this threat and take immediate action to counteract Russia's cognitive warfare strategies. Our national security, societal cohesion and democratic values depend on it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

I now invite Ms. Chyczij to give an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Alexandra Chyczij, President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to speak to you this morning.

The Ukrainian-Canadian community has been the target of Soviet and now Russian disinformation for many decades. What many Canadians have difficulty understanding is that this is not a case of homeland against diaspora. Our Ukrainian government is not targeting us. It's a foreign government, the Russian government, that has made us the object of its disinformation.

As my friends have alluded to, CSIS has identified Russia as a foreign actor and player in disinformation. To quote from their report, “Russia also continues to attempt to discredit Canada’s Ukrainian community, falsely claiming that it is composed of neo-fascists who control Canada’s foreign policy.” There's more that they say, but I'm sure you've read the report.

When our intelligence service comes to these conclusions, why is Canada still a safe haven for Russian operatives? One of the reasons is that some Canadian politicians, foreign policy advisers and staff in Global Affairs hold a naive view of Russia and the threat it poses to Canada and our democratic institutions.

For over a decade, our community advocated for the ban on RT, Russian television. That didn't happen until a full year after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. RT was finally sanctioned by Canada—along with other Russian institutions, such as Putin's think tank, the Valdai club—but no action has been taken by the government with regard to those in Canada who collaborate with these institutions. Many Canadian contributors to RT are allowed to operate with impunity. Indeed, some of them are invited to appear before Canadian parliamentary committees. Others are given grants from Canadian taxpayer money to produce Russian propaganda films.

We also know that Canada is a preferred destination for Russian sleeper agents. There doesn't appear to be any detection or prevention of foreign espionage in Canada. They come here because we make it easy for them to establish their identities, all the while carrying on their spycraft. They then move to other allied countries, posing as citizens of a reliable allied partner: They're now Canadians.

You know the story of the Vavilov family and of course Mikhail Mikushin, who was recently exchanged in the Evan Gershkovich exchange. He was a colonel in Russian military intelligence, a valued asset of Putin's.

Russia co-opts authoritative, influential and persuasive individuals, such as academics, journalists and social media influencers, whom Stalin called “useful idiots”, to repeat and amplify its narratives. When these narratives are word for word what the Russian embassy and Putin are saying, why does no one ask why?

We know that we're here to discuss the RT-run Tenet or Doppelganger operation, involving a Canadian company owned by two Canadians using Canadian social influencers. They produce Canadian-themed videos on hot-button divisive issues. Once they have the ear of a frightened and disaffected audience, they blame the economy and everything else that is wrong in the world on Canadian support for Ukraine—who are all Nazis, by the way. The government has failed to do anything. This creates a culture of impunity that normalizes this behaviour of referring to Ukrainians as Nazis. This has also posed a threat to our community, unfortunately. We surveyed our community and saw a substantial increase in the number of anti-Ukrainian hate-motivated incidents. We have asked two successive ministers of public safety to speak out and condemn this behaviour, but they remain silent.

We know that for decades the Soviet Union engaged in “active measures”, or operations to discredit our post World War II diaspora, who were very critical of the Soviet regime. We posed a threat to them. One of these operations, unfortunately, was the Deschênes commission. Evidence in Operation Payback shows a campaign to inflame the Canadian public by falsely claiming that the infamous Dr. Mengele was hiding in Canada. This campaign was started by a Canadian representative of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Sol Littman, who deliberately planted false stories. Once the Canadian public was sufficiently inflamed, the Mulroney government convened a commission of inquiry that cleared all but 29 individuals.

However, today we hear repeated calls for the disclosure of the names of these people, over 800 of them, who have several generations of descendants.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry. Could I get you to wrap up?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

Yes.

We would also like to speak to the Russian propaganda film, Russians at War, which was produced by a former producer of Russian television. It is an example of the kind of naïveté that we have in Canada, which not only condones but also finances the whitewashing of genocide.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We go now to Mr. Bezan for six minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here and for participating in this important study.

I just want to start off by drilling down a little on the Canada Media Fund. A sum of $340,000 of taxpayer money went to Anastasia Trofimova. As you mentioned, she was a former employee of RT, Russia Today.

Do you believe that the Government of Canada should recoup those funds for funding Russian misinformation?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

Absolutely, I think it's.... I'm sorry. I don't know if that was directed to me.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It was for both witnesses. You can start.

[Alexandra Chyczij]

I'll start, then.

Absolutely, I think it's scandalous that Canadian taxpayer money funded this production, and we call for a full investigation as to what she said on her application. Did she disclose that she worked for RT? Of course, RT has scrubbed any reference to her from its website. They understand that it's a liability now. However, we need to understand whether the Canadian funding agencies knew that she was a former employee—she produced 11 films for them—and whether they knew that she was entering sovereign Ukrainian territory with an invading army that is committing war crimes.

These are questions that need to be asked, and I think the funding should be recouped, because I am sure that the Kremlin is just giggling at how clever it was in tricking Canadians.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Would any of the other witnesses like to comment on that propaganda film?

[Yuriy Novodvorskiy]

Thank you.

The RCDA opposes any film that minimizes or that hides the atrocities committed by the Russian government or the Russian army in its invasion of Ukraine. At the same time, we believe that there is a place for honest journalism and for documentary films from the conflict.

The RCDA doesn't have information. We have not seen this film, but if the investigation shows that this film was organized under false pretenses on its application and that it was made with the knowledge and approval of the Russian government, then we do support further action.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Wouldn't we just assume, though, if there's a journalist or, in this case, a director embedded with the Russian troops, that they're there with the blessing of the Kremlin?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

I can speak to that.

Absolutely. It is inconceivable that Russian military intelligence did not know that this woman spent seven months embedded in occupied territory.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

What's the role of the Canadian government, then? Other than getting back our taxpayer dollars, what role does it have in seeing whether she actually filmed, and maybe has footage of, war crimes being committed, which of course are all glossed over in the propaganda film? What international laws did she break, essentially, that the government has not yet taken any action on?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

We know she violated Ukrainian law by entering into occupied territory without the permission of Ukrainian authorities. There is the possibility of violation of sanctions, and the RCMP would be well served to investigate the circumstances around her filming of this documentary. Also, of course, the RCMP is collecting evidence of war crimes and should seize her footage.

She claims she saw no evidence of war crimes, but in seven months we know that in every single territory that is liberated from Russian occupation, we find evidence of war crimes. We know that they are torturing and executing Ukrainian prisoners of war, so it's inconceivable that in the seven months she saw nothing.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You said that you've had a couple of meetings with the former and current Minister of Public Safety about Russian disinformation, and you are not satisfied with the response that you've received to date from either. I'm assuming it was Minister Blair and his predecessor.

[Alexandra Chyczij]

No, I should clarify. It was with Minister Mendicino.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay.

[Alexandra Chyczij]

He did not take up our request to make a public statement, and we have not been able to secure a meeting with Minister Leblanc.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay. He won't even meet with you on this important issue and how we deal with disinformation. It's another cover-up in the works here.

You mentioned other activities of the Russian Federation, going back to Soviet times. Outside of social media, which we know they've really penetrated, and RT of course, and other propaganda tools that they've used, do you believe that any of our mainstream media are being compromised by either the Soviets or the Kremlin today?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

If you look at the reporting, it is very often word for word what is coming out of the Kremlin and out of the Russian embassy.

I'll say to you, Mr. Bezan, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's not a chicken.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

In closing, are you aware of any evidence of any journalists today, or academics, who are being compromised because of ties back to the Kremlin?

[Alexandra Chyczij]

We know that at the University of Ottawa there is a regular contributor to Russian television, and we know that at Carleton University there is a prominent member of the Valdai club, which is Putin's think tank.