Evidence of meeting #122 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth by reiterating what you said about there being a strong consensus for the support of Ukraine in countries like Canada.
Is that correct?
Visiting Professor, Central European University, As an Individual
That is my understanding, looking at some data on the support Canada gives Ukraine. I mentioned it in my speech, and I'm very sorry if the audio quality was not enough. Canada, as far as I know, is in the top 10 of the world's donors to Ukraine. Of course, that is extremely important.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
I'm certainly very proud of Canada's long-standing support of Ukraine, especially as it started in 2014 with Operation Unifier training the Ukrainian forces. A number of my friends in the Canadian Armed Forces went over there to do that.
In a country like Canada, though, sometimes our political debates and partisanship lead to political parties accusing other political parties of not being supportive of Ukraine, including cases of the Liberal Party accusing the Conservative Party of being in the back pocket of Vladimir Putin.
Is it helpful for our strong consensus on Ukraine to have the governing political party accuse the opposition party of being...? Does that help build consensus, or does creating these divisive debates bring down consensus?
Visiting Professor, Central European University, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, it's not for me to give comments on political parties competing with each other in Canada. I am grateful to all the parties in Canada providing support for Ukraine.
I would not like to comment on the political debates.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
I understand.
I'll put this more generally for you.
You talked about how one part of the success of the Russian operation is our consumption of the disinformation and misinformation they're spreading. The second part is this: Once those have been consumed, they become part of the debate. There is now a debate about which political parties do or do not support Ukraine when once there was, as you said, a strong consensus of support for Ukraine.
Is that considered a success by Russia—a perception being created that there is no consensus of political support for Ukraine in a country like Canada?
October 8th, 2024 / 11:20 a.m.
Visiting Professor, Central European University, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, in this case, it is important to highlight that only the full acceptance of a particular malign information narrative produced in Russia can be considered a full success for such an operation. When there are disinformation narratives spread in the mainstream media, seeing divisions is only part of the success. It is not the only thing.
I'm sure that, for example, all of you know that one of the most popular narratives of Russian propaganda is that Ukrainians are Nazis—that Ukraine has a Nazi problem. The mere fact that you know about this narrative is part of the success, but it does not mean the entire information operation in Russia has been successful.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
You know, Canada has a role. We've sent observers to help out in elections in countries like Ukraine. We see that there is Russian interference in other countries' elections, including in the country of Georgia, whose election is upcoming. How concerned are you about Russian influence campaigns in those countries as well? How do you think Canada can play a role in strengthening those countries' democratic institutions?
Visiting Professor, Central European University, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, I am concerned about the developments in Georgia. In September, I published a report on how Russian political warfare also concerns Georgia and what actors in Georgia are essentially amplifying Russian propaganda and disinformation. The elections that will be held in Georgia later this month, I think, will be crucial for democracy, not only in Georgia but also, in a way, in this part of what is still called “the post-Soviet space”.
As far as I know, Canada is also part of the OSCE and participates in the OSCE/ODIHR missions. I hope that Canada will continue participating in those monitoring missions, including in Georgia.
Liberal
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Just before I start, I noticed that yesterday Ms. Dancho said that she was going to disrupt today's meeting by bringing forward a motion. It's unfortunate that the Conservatives would want to stall and disrupt this meeting when we have such experts with us for this testimony, studying something that the former public safety minister and high commissioner for the U.K. called “a crisis situation”. Let's hope that she changes her mind so that we can actually hear from the witnesses.
I'm going to start with Mr. Scott.
Beyond Ukraine messaging from Russia, what other kinds of messages was Russia sending through Tenet Media?
Chief Executive Officer, Reset Tech
The primary messages that you see in Tenet Media creative are what I would call a "standard culture war playbook". They are aimed at some of the most divisive issues in western society at the moment—questions around immigration, LGBTQ rights, and the validity of climate change. Also, of course, as the professor has very clearly explained, there is an aggressive messaging campaign to try to undermine support for Ukraine. These are consistently reiterated across all of the Tenet Media channels.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Yes, I think Ukraine is one that we've heard a lot about, but I'm hearing as an MP in my office Canadians expressing concerns about climate change, for example, and we're hearing a lot about that from the party opposite me. Immigration and LGBTQ issues, all of those are filtered beyond Tenet Media and their 16 million subscribers to Canadians. I'm wondering if you could tell us, Mr. Scott, about the vulnerabilities that every-day Canadians have to this kind of messaging.
Chief Executive Officer, Reset Tech
I think it's quite significant, especially when you consider the way in which social media platforms function and how they make money and what kind of content they reward and monetize. When you have channels like Tenet Media, which are hyperbolic and intentionally provocative, what happens, of course, is human nature. It draws eyeballs and people pay attention to that. Then the algorithm that is curating content on TikTok or on YouTube simply serves up more content of a similar type.
The more we see things, the more normal they seem and the more normalized they become in our political rhetoric, and the less extreme they seem to us from a political standpoint as the centre line begins to move. How extreme can something be if it seems like everybody on social media is talking about it?
This is the pattern that we see in digital media marketplaces, which gradually leads towards a polarization of rhetoric. This is extremely divisive, not only because it distorts the representation of public opinion but also because it is so heavily rewarded. It's not that Tenet Media relied exclusively on Russian secret dark money to run their operation. They also made a lot of money on advertising from the likes of YouTube and TikTok, who also make a lot of money from this kind of overt, hyper-politicized content, without any effort to determine where it is coming from, whether it could be an influence operation, and what are their responsibilities in terms of public safety and national security.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you.
I'm going to switch to Mr. Shekhovtsov.
You've written extensively on the influence that Russia had, through social media, on French President Macron as well as on German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Are you seeing that kind of influence here in Canada on our current leadership in the government?
Visiting Professor, Central European University, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, I should say that Germany and France are the main targets of the Russian operations in Europe. For North America, it's still the United States of America that is the primary target. I can't say that Russia is going around the west and interfering in all elections. They do have their limits as to where they can interfere, where they have resources and where they maybe even have allies to interfere. In some countries, it's very difficult for them.
In a way, Canada is not a priority for the Russian operations, although the fact that so many—
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I only have a minute left.
On that, though, if we are seeing Russian influence through Tenet Media on climate change and immigration, for example, and then if you have political parties of differing views, is that not going to influence Canadians' perceptions of those political parties, given the disinformation that's put out there?
Visiting Professor, Central European University, As an Individual
You're absolutely right. Of course, all the content that is produced, say, in the English language targeting the west in general will necessarily, almost automatically, have influence on Canadian audiences. This influence is something that is impossible to stop. It goes from one audience to another. There is also content on climate change and, as my colleague said, LGBTQI issues, immigration and so on.
Although Canada may not be the primary target, still, the information operations produced for and targeting western audiences will also target other western nations, including Canada.
Liberal
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would also like to thank the witnesses for their presence and for their very interesting, very enlightening, but also rather worrying testimonies.
Mr. Shekhovtsov, you mentioned at the beginning of your speech that Russia has been waging a political war against western democracies for a number of years, that this has intensified since 2022, that is, since the illegal invasion of Ukraine, and that Canada was one of the main targets because of its support for Ukraine.
I feel like we're losing this political war, especially these days.
You mentioned a few kinds of Russian propaganda messages that make their way to Canada. They say Ukraine is corrupt, for example. Last week, I was in Dublin for a meeting of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, and we met with the Ukrainian delegation. The first thing the head of the Canadian delegation said to the Ukrainian delegation was that they should know that, if Canada were to learn that the money it was giving to Ukraine was being used for something other than what it was supposed to be used for, i.e., corruption, its support would cease fairly quickly. He was saying that there was corruption everywhere, including in Canada and Ukraine, and that the Ukrainian delegation had to give him that assurance.
So I get the impression that this Russian propaganda message that Ukraine is corrupt is making its way to Canadian elected officials and senators. I wonder how we're supposed to get back to the truth and untangle all this false information circulating and making its way to the Canadian Parliament.
I was surprised to hear this question. Normally, we discuss what Canada is doing to help Ukraine, what more we should be doing, and so on; yet we were addressing the Ukrainian delegation in an almost confrontational way.
I don't know if you're seeing this more and more, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.
Visiting Professor, Central European University, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, as far as I understand, for the overwhelming majority of the cases of western support for Ukraine, there are audit committees. There are commissions that regularly check how resources are spent, including financial resources provided to Ukraine. There is a constant auditing process. For those who are interested, it would probably be useful if they had access to those auditing operations. They probably do not, of course, concerning some secret information that could be too sensitive, but could for general observations and general assessments of how money is spent, for example. Strategic communication with those actors who are interested is important.
Social networks are another thing. In market economies, it's probably very difficult to have any control over social networks. I do think that authorities should talk to representatives of social networks to co-operate more closely in monitoring, and removing all if those accounts that are spreading malign disinformation that can actually influence the lives and health of millions of people, not necessarily only in Ukraine.
Better co-operation with social networks is important in the short-term, mid-term and long-term. Media literacy and similar educational efforts are important to teach people in our age of misinformation and disinformation. Honestly, there is a huge amount of information that a regular person cannot consume without being confused by that amount of information. It's important to teach people how to double-check information, how to rely on particular sources of information and be able to distinguish truth from lies.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
I only have a few seconds left, but I'd like to ask Mr. Scott a quick question.
You said that it was the FBI that discovered the whole scheme behind Tenet Media, that there were people in Canada, that the company was based here, and so on.
Would CSIS, the RCMP or our Canadian information services have been sufficiently equipped to make the same discovery? Consider, though, that the company was based in Canada, but it was the FBI that discovered the scheme.
Do we have the same tools as the Americans? I know, and you've both mentioned it, that the United States is unquestionably the main target in North America, with Canada a close second. That said, I'd like to know if, in your opinion, Canada would have been sufficiently equipped to discover this kind of scheme.
Liberal
Chief Executive Officer, Reset Tech
The short answer is yes. I believe Canadian authorities do have those tools. It's a question of where to look and how deeply, and how to prioritize law enforcement and intelligence investigations.
Liberal
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to echo my colleagues in thanking our witnesses for helping guide us through.
I consider myself an optimist, but it's certainly hard not to be pessimistic when you look at the challenges that we're facing from this very real problem in our democratic space and in how our politics operate. In the nine years I've been an elected official, I have certainly seen the trend line getting much worse.
Mr. Scott, I'd like to start with you because I know your organization is trying to find a way “to support a realignment of digital media markets with democratic values.”
In your opening statement, when you were talking about the number of impressions that were made, the subscriber base and the 1.1 billion video views of Tenet Media, I was thinking of this concept of the public square and how that has transitioned over time. We have to be very careful as policy-makers because we don't want to give the Canadian public the perception that we're stepping in in a hard way. One thing we have to remember is that social media platforms, which have become today's public square, are in fact not public. They are owned by a handful of billionaires and they are designed for one purpose only, which is to return a massive profit to those billionaires. They wield an incredible amount of power.
Mr. Scott, this is a probably a very big question. How do we as policy-makers rein that power back in, so that a handful of billionaires are not controlling our public discourse, but do so in a way that tries to protect freedom of speech?
It seems like a monumental task. This is not the first time this committee has been confronted with such a massive question. We looked at this issue two years ago when we were looking at Canada's security posture vis-à-vis Russia and I'm not sure we've arrived at any answers yet.
I would love to have some of your feedback to help guide us through this particular study because, ultimately, we want to make some solid recommendations to the Government of Canada.
