Public Safety Committee on Oct. 18th, 2024

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity to be able to speak on this. I think that these very, very serious revelations by the RCMP on Monday came as a shock to many, but I will say to many in the Sikh community that this is definitely something about foreign interference that the Sikh community knows well and has been talking about for more than 40 years. In Canada, we're at a very critical point now in our history for this very, very important issue on foreign interference that's being committed.

The allegations that the RCMP made, those serious ones, I'd just like to read into the record. This is from their statement.

...the RCMP has obtained evidence that demonstrates four very serious issues:

1. Violent extremism impacting both countries;

They mean India and Canada.

2. Links tying agents of the Government of India (GOI) to homicides and violent acts;

3. The use of organized crime to create a perception of an unsafe environment targeting the South Asian Community in Canada; and

4. Interference into democratic processes.

Investigations have revealed that Indian diplomats and consular officials based in Canada leverage their official positions to engage in clandestine activities....

By far, they're not the lightest of allegations that have been made by the RCMP on foreign interference happening in Canada.

Canadians should feel safe in Canada. Canadians should be safe from extortions. Canadians should be safe from murder. They should be safe, and their families should be safe. We should be living in communities that are safe from threats of violence, not just from anyone living here but also from any foreign governments.

After nine years, that's not how Canadians feel. We saw last year that a Canadian was killed on Canadian soil, allegedly by a foreign government. India is what the RCMP has alleged, or there are allegations towards it.

It's a very difficult time in Canada right now after nine years of this Prime Minister. I think that's why it's very important that we don't just study this. Real action needs to be taken now for the safety of Canadians. It's been far too long.

As I said before, for the Sikh community, this is something they've been advocating for more than 40 years. The allegations that were made by the RCMP on Monday were more of a vindication of the advocacy that has been going on for the last 40 years.

A criminal is a criminal, and a Canadian is a Canadian. We should not look at any type of religion. This has nothing to do with religion or anything like that. This is simply about foreign interference happening and Canadians feeling unsafe in Canada. That is a very, very serious thing that we need to address here.

I'm very, very happy that my Conservative colleagues and I all want answers on behalf of Canadians. As our leader has said, any foreign interference from any country, including India, is unacceptable and must be stopped. That's why we're here today.

Given that we know all this information and given the murder of Hardeep Singh Nijjar last year, I do also want to point out that the U.S. went from allegations to arrests in one week, whereas under this Prime Minister, there were allegations. Absolutely nothing happened after that. It kept the communities at large feeling very unsafe that these allegations were taking place and that this could happen to anybody. No arrests were made immediately; just allegations were made. That is another thing that I hope we can cover in this study.

Given all of that, Mr. Chair, I'd like to add a few people to the list if my colleagues would agree to that. I would like to amend some of the witnesses we want here.

The first is the director of CSIS, Daniel Rogers. The second is the deputy minister of Public Safety Canada, Shawn Tupper, and the third is the deputy minister of Global Affairs Canada. I think adding those three would give us a wider range to be able to study this issue.

If you want to call it a friendly amendment, that's what we're proposing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'll take that as a simple amendment.

The discussion now is on the amendment. We have the director of CSIS, the deputy....

I'm sorry. Could you say them again?

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

First is the director of CSIS, Daniel Rogers. Second is the deputy minister of Public Safety Canada, Shawn Tupper. Third is the deputy minister of Global Affairs Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Is there any discussion on adding those witnesses to the list?

We'll go to a vote on that, in that case—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm sorry, Chair, but I have my hand raised.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry. I missed who spoke there.

Ms. Khalid, go ahead.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

I understand and appreciate the witnesses who are being added here—the CSIS director, the deputy minister for Public Safety and the deputy minister for Global Affairs—but I'm just wondering, given how the scope of this motion is being outlined, why we need to add these witnesses to this list. I'm hoping the member who's moving this amendment can help us clarify what exactly he is seeking to extract from the witnesses named in his amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I should just clarify that apparently we don't have a director of CSIS at the moment. We have an interim director, Vanessa Lloyd, so we'll consider that modification to be made.

Who's next? We'll get clarification from Mr. Hallan.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Just to clarify, I think it's very self-evident that the people we're putting forward more than likely had a direct link to anything that was happening at that time, and if we really want to study this issue of foreign interference, I think it's important to hear their voices in this debate as well. They have the expertise, as we know, to answer some of these questions, because they have a direct link to information that can be helpful in this.

I'll end there.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

If I can take back the floor for a second, Mr. Chair, I think 100% that getting as much information as we can from as many people as we can is a really good thing, so I have no problems with these names being added.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Next on my list is Ms. Lantsman. I'm wondering whether you want to speak after we vote on this amendment.

You do. Okay.

Is there any other discussion on this proposed amendment? No.

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you.

We go back to the motion as amended, and we go to Ms. Lantsman, please.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thanks for bringing this forward to the committee.

As my colleagues have already said, the news and allegations from the RCMP are certainly concerning, and I think this committee is the right place to be seized with that.

Furthermore, any interference from any country, including India, is entirely unacceptable and should be stopped. It is the government's first job to keep Canadian citizens safe from all of these foreign threats and the foreign interference that we know has been happening in the country for some time.

For nine years, the Liberal government has failed to keep Canadians safe and has failed to take national security and foreign interference seriously, and Canada has become a playground for these activities. We have heard that over and over again, and we hear it over and over again from experts. I suspect that the witnesses at this committee would not try to hide that. Canadians need to know what and when, and they need to know why it took so long for the government to act. This is just another example of the Prime Minister's failure on foreign interference.

We heard the Prime Minister at the commission admit that our intelligence agencies have been gathering this information for years, indicating that India had been committing foreign interference on Canadian soil, and it's very clear that the Prime Minister had done nothing about it. Even when provided the opportunity to do something about it and protect Canadians against extortion and the violent actions that the RCMP has brought to light that Indian officials have engaged in, they voted against Bill C-381, the protection against extortion act, in the House of Commons, which was brought forward by my colleague.

At every single juncture, the Prime Minister has not acted on the information that he has. I think this committee, and those watching this committee, should know that. His government stalled for years on the creation of a foreign influence registry, and it was only introduced as a result of Conservative pressure.

For those watching this at home, I hope this committee reveals the inaction of the Prime Minister over his years of knowing information and his continued inaction, as we heard about just this week, in letting Canada become a playground for foreign interference. That's on him.

I hope this committee gets to the bottom of all of this.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thanks, Ms. Lantsman.

I am advised that Daniel Rogers is in fact the new director of CSIS. He was appointed three days ago, but he will start on October 28, so we will make those appropriate adjustments.

Before we go to Mr. Gaheer, I want to ask Mr. MacGregor to clarify something in the motion.

The clerk has pointed out that in the English part of the motion it says, “the committee hold no less than six meetings, ensuring an equal distribution of time”.

We're unsure what “an equal distribution of time for witnesses” means. Maybe you could clarify that for us, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was just trying to ensure that.... The wording of the motion says “no less than six meetings”, so I think it's quite open. I was just trying to find a space where the parties' witness lists were all treated in an equal manner.

If people have an issue with that or want further clarification, I don't want to interrupt the proceedings. From what I've heard so far, there seems to be broad agreement with the overall direction this motion is taking, so if people want to clarify that or suggest a friendly amendment, I'm open to that, but I don't want to, in any way, delay other committee members.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

The clerk wanted to know if it's going to be one hour per.... Anyway, I'm proposing that we let our esteemed clerk sort this out as best he can. I think he will give us a fair....

Ms. Dancho, do you wish to speak on that point?

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to our adding the amendment of the additional deputy ministers, we would like them to appear separately. Of course, they're welcome to come with their ministers, as they normally do, but we would like them to appear separately, on their own, for questions, and not at the same time, so that we can ensure we're getting the full breadth of the committee's potential to question those deputy ministers on their knowledge and expertise.

They should be appearing separately on their own for at least one hour each, but notably, two hours probably has been a good standard in the past. I leave it to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I will rely on our esteemed clerk to execute this in good faith. He will do his best, as he always does.

We will continue now with Mr. Gaheer.

Mr. Gaheer, go ahead, please.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank my NDP colleague for bringing this motion forward. It's of grave concern to our party, to this committee and to me personally as a practising Sikh.

Canadians were rightly shocked last year when the Prime Minister stood up in the House of Commons and declared on the House floor, on the record, that there was credible evidence to show that agents of the Government of India were involved in the killing of a Canadian citizen, Hardeep Nijjar, on Canadian soil. Since then, we've learned a lot.

In February 2024, the RCMP created a multidisciplinary team to investigate and coordinate the efforts to combat further threats that existed. We know that members of the South Asian community and members of the Sikh community are being targeted with credible and imminent threats to their lives.

That brings us to the events of a couple of days ago, when the RCMP made statements alleging the involvement of agents of the Government of India in serious criminal activity in Canada, including homicides, extortions and interference in our democratic processes.

I now want to highlight how unprecedented this is. This is an extraordinary situation. The RCMP normally does not comment on [Technical difficulty—Editor] to protect Canadians from political interference. Obviously, it's going to be the RCMP that's going to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Gaheer, you cut out there for a minute. You cut out just after you said that “the RCMP does not comment”. Then there was a gap.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Okay. I will continue.

Obviously, this is an unprecedented situation, where the RCMP is commenting on an ongoing investigation—which they normally do not do—and this is because of a threat that's posed to Canadians. We've seen that the Government of India has refused to co-operate with Canadian law enforcement agencies, despite having been presented with that evidence of the involvement of their agents in serious criminal activity in Canada. There's organized crime being used to engage in intimidation, threats, violence and interference targeting members of the Sikh community and the South Asian community within Canada.

We support this motion. The only amendment that I would like to introduce will be along the lines of misinformation and disinformation, given that right after the RCMP made their statement and the Prime Minister, the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Foreign Affairs came out to make their statements, we saw this very coordinated effort through Indian media channels—and by the Government of India, frankly—to engage in a disinformation campaign.

This followed the announcement that six Indian diplomats and consular officials would be expelled from Canada to ensure that Canadians and diaspora communities are protected from acts of political interference, violence or intimidation on Canadian soil.

What we've seen as a response from Indian media and the Indian government is an attitude of deflection and denial and just outright lying about the situation and what's happened.

I would demand to include another bullet point in that list in the motion, something along the lines of “witnesses to testify on the impact of the disinformation campaign”. I can leave it to Mr. MacGregor to propose that language, maybe, or to the clerk.

That's my amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Okay. Your amendment, I understand, is to add to that list of bullet points a category of witnesses, which is.... I'm sorry. Say that again.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

It's “witnesses to testify on the impact of the disinformation campaign by India”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

It would be a category under point 7 or maybe point 8—

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

It's for point 8.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

—and would say “witnesses to testify as to the misinformation campaigns”.

Is that correct?