Public Safety Committee on Oct. 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 124 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I would like to remind participants of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

We have been having some sound issues, so if there are any, if they persist and haven't been resolved, please bring them directly to our attention.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), the committee commences the consideration of the request to undertake a study of recent events surrounding the expulsion of Government of India diplomats and the situation of foreign interference in Canada.

I will give the floor to Mr. MacGregor.

Mr. MacGregor, please go ahead.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, committee members.

First of all, I want to start by thanking everyone who joined with me in signing the Standing Order 106(4) letter. As you can imagine, it's pretty rare that we get unanimous support for an emergency meeting, but I think the revelations from the RCMP that were delivered to the Canadian public on Thanksgiving Monday were nothing short of explosive, and I think they demand this committee's attention.

I will be moving a motion, Mr. Chair. I know that the clerk has both French and English copies available—hard copy and digital—for members who are participating in person and online.

Before I move the motion, I think it's important to add a bit of brief context, because of course this is not the first time that we have been witness to serious allegations involving the Government of India and its agents in Canada. In fact, it was more than a year ago, in September of 2023, that the Prime Minister stood in the House of Commons and levelled these accusations against the Government of India, accusing it and its agents of nefarious criminal activity, election interference and a whole host of things. Needless to say, the Prime Minister's rising in the House of Commons and making such a statement did make headlines around the world.

Since then, the Hogue commission has released an interim report. That was in May of 2023. If you read that report, you can see that there are broad mentions of India's interference in Canada throughout. Then, of course, in June 2024, the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians released its special report on election interference, which again mentioned the activities of the Government of India throughout.

That brings us, Mr. Chair, to October 14, 2024, this past Monday. For the RCMP—indeed, for any police force that is conducting an active investigation—to come out with such explosive revelations I think underscores just how serious this is, and I think the RCMP made a point that they were doing this because some individuals in Canada have their lives directly in danger. The threat had reached such a level that they felt compelled to ignore the traditional way of going through the judicial process and made these accusations public so that particularly the members of the South Asian community whose lives might be in danger could be forewarned and so that we could remain extra vigilant.

I also think, Mr. Chair, that the House of Commons and the Senate came together quite quickly in June of this year to pass Bill C-70, which contained important legislative measures to deal with foreign interference.

With all of these events coming together and culminating in what we saw on Monday, I think it is quite appropriate for this committee to be seized with the matter. With that in mind, I would like to move the following motion:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study concerning the electoral interference and violent criminal activities carried out by agents of the Government of India, as identified by the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians' report and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police's report from October 14, 2024, and the subsequent expulsion of six diplomats from the Government of India.

As a part of this study, the committee hold no less than six meetings, ensuring an equal distribution of time for witnesses, and invite the following ministers, senior officials, and expert witnesses from impacted communities and academia to provide briefings:

1. Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Mélanie Joly.

2. Minister of Public Safety, the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc.

3. RCMP commissioner, Mike Duheme.

4. National security and intelligence adviser, Nathalie Drouin.

5. Experts from Canada's South Asian community.

6. Brampton mayor Patrick Brown and any former leadership candidates of the 2022 Conservative Party leadership race.

7. National security subject matter experts.

With that, Mr. Chair, the motion is moved. I hope that copies have been distributed to members.

I will give my time back to the chair. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll start the debate now.

I see that Ms. May has her hand up.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Does she need unanimous consent?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Pardon?

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Chair, I may need unanimous consent to be allowed to speak, but I have had a top secret security briefing from Nathalie Drouin and from the new head of CSIS, Daniel Rogers. I'd appreciate an opportunity to support this study and also to suggest a reason beyond the one Alistair just mentioned for why the RCMP had to move forward and make this information public, because there's a larger context that has to do with having to disclose that with regard to the criminal activities, criminal charges have already been brought.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Mr. Chair, she needs unanimous consent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Hold on for just a minute, please.

I understand that as a member of the House of Commons, you can participate. You do not require unanimous consent.

I'll let you carry on.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just wanted to add some more context. I know I'm not a member of the committee, but as the leader of the Green Party, I have top secret security clearance, and as a leader of a party, like all party leaders in the opposition, I have received briefings from Nathalie Drouin, the national security and intelligence adviser to the Prime Minister, and I also, on that call, was with the newly appointed head of CSIS, Daniel Rogers.

The context in which they had to go forward was that they were aware that the RCMP was aware that the ongoing criminal investigations required that much of this was going to have to be disclosed in court for the defence counsel for people engaged in the criminal prosecutions for the murder of Hardeep Singh Nijjar. They were also aware that six diplomats and their proxies were involved in an active and continuing ring that represented a threat to Canadians.

I'm not taking anything away from what my colleague Mr. MacGregor has said. This is just to say that this is an additional reason for the urgency that led the RCMP to make public this absolutely chilling additional information. That was another part of that context.

I'd like to participate in the hearings going forward. I promise not to take much of the committee's time. I just appreciate the opportunity to say that after our briefings, some of us have more information than others, and I think that all Canadians should have the same kind of briefing that I received, just with care taken to ensure that certain parts stay behind an absolutely secure wall for national security reasons, while the rest can be shared with Canadians so they understand why there is the need for the public sharing of this information.

I completely agree with focusing on people who are most at risk, because there's an active effort by a criminal network, coordinated out of India, to collect information on Canadians in their normal patterns of life, such as what routes they are taking when they are walking their dogs.

This couldn't be more significant and urgent. It should be disrupted so that Canadians can be reassured that the RCMP, CSIS and our intelligence apparatus are coordinating their work to protect Canadians' lives.

I'll stop there. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. May.

We'll go to Ms. Dancho, followed by Madame Michaud and Mr. Hallan.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In past practice, when a motion is not provided to members to review in advance, you have provided a five-minute recess to review it, so I would ask for that five-minute recess to review the motion, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

That sounds reasonable.

We will suspend for five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

The meeting has resumed.

We'll carry on with Ms. Dancho.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The allegations of the RCMP are extremely concerning and must be taken very seriously by all parliamentarians and certainly by this committee. What India has allegedly done on Canadian soil represents an outrageous assault on Canada's sovereignty and is completely unacceptable.

Foreign interference from any country, as we know, including from India, must be put to a stop. The first job of the Prime Minister and the Canadian government is to keep citizens safe from foreign threats. That is the first job of the Prime Minister and the Canadian government. The first job of the official opposition, of course, is to hold the government accountable for their ability, or lack thereof, to prevent foreign interference and to keep Canadians and people in Canada safe from foreign threats. We certainly expect the full criminal prosecution of anyone who has threatened, murdered or otherwise harmed Canadian citizens or people on Canadian soil.

The public safety and national security committee, as we know, has the responsibility to look into this matter promptly, in a professional manner and thoroughly on behalf of Canadians and all those who have suffered in Canada as a result of the federal government failing to prevent foreign interference over this last number of years.

Mr. Chair, I want to mention that the Conservatives on this committee, and the official opposition at large, certainly take this matter very seriously. We are deeply concerned that the situation under the Liberal Prime Minister continues to worsen for Canadians. It is shocking to learn from the RCMP that 13 individuals are facing an imminent threat, potentially as bad as murder, from a foreign government, notably from India. We are very seized with this issue as Conservatives.

On this committee, we are, of course, reviewing the motion put forward by Mr. MacGregor. We thank him for bringing forward his Standing Order 106(4) letter. Of course, we were keen to sign it so that this committee could look into this matter very thoroughly.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I did want to include my thoughts on this, and I believe my colleagues would like to as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We go now to Mr. Uppal, followed by Mr. Hallan and Ms. Lantsman.

I apologize. Next is Madame Michaud.

The floor is yours.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

No problem. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank Mr. MacGregor for proposing this emergency meeting. The Bloc Québécois didn't hesitate to sign the letter requesting this meeting, because this is an incredibly concerning issue.

Initially, I was afraid that if we called only the RCMP to testify before the committee, we wouldn't be able to learn more than what had already been revealed by the RCMP, given the ongoing investigation, of course. Now, I think the witness list is very reasonable. I think the various proposed witnesses will be able to tell us more.

I'm therefore in favour of the motion.

I do have a question, though, about the wording. It may just be a bad translation, but on the sixth item on the proposed witness list, the English version says “any former leadership candidates”, while the French version, if translated, says “all former candidates”. The words “any” and “all” don't have the same meaning.

I would like Mr. MacGregor to clarify something. Do we want to invite any of the candidates in the 2022 Conservative Party leadership race, or do we want to invite all of the candidates? I'd like some clarification on that.

That said, the Bloc Québécois is in favour of the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Madame Michaud, perhaps you could offer that as an amendment to ensure that the—

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Actually, I'm asking for clarification, since the two current versions don't mean the same thing. I'm just asking if it's Mr. MacGregor's intention to have all of the Conservative leadership candidates testify or just any of them.

I won't move an amendment, since I don't know what the real intention is. The English version is probably accurate.

By “any”, do you mean “n’importe lequel” in French?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I will ask Mr. MacGregor to clarify that.

Would you like to jump in quickly?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

The word is “any”. That's how I intended it in the English version. I'm sorry if it didn't come out clearly in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I guess we'll take it as a friendly amendment that the French version as well incorporates that as “any”.

Is that okay with you, Ms. Michaud?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We'll go now to Mr. Uppal.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, we are dealing with a very serious issue after hearing of the allegations that the RCMP has made against agents of the Indian government. We heard accusations of murder on Canadian soil, extortion, the use of organized crime, intimidation and coercion. This is a matter of protecting our sovereignty and protecting our democracy.

It's important for us, as a committee, to be able to get answers for Canadians. Any government's first duty is to protect the safety of Canadians and, of course, to take steps to stop foreign interference here in Canada.

We want to ensure that this government takes national security seriously. At the Hogue commission, the Prime Minister himself admitted that the Indian government has been committing foreign interference here in Canada for a number of years. However, this has continued; this has gone on.

In the U.S., we have seen that the Americans have been able to stop incidents of murder and assassination, but unfortunately that has not happened in Canada. Arrests have been made earlier in the U.S., but that has not happened in Canada. I think it's important that we, as a committee, look into the reasons for this. We can look at what the gaps are in order to best protect Canadians, our democracy and our sovereignty, and to ensure that Canadians are kept safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Hallan.