Evidence of meeting #128 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was comment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lauren Chen  As an Individual

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 128 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I would like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on September 19, 2024, the committee resumes its study of Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada.

I would now like to welcome our witness today, Ms. Lauren Chen.

Welcome, Ms. Chen.

I will inform the committee members that the witness is accompanied today by her legal counsel, Mr. David Anber, currently online via Zoom.

House of Commons Procedure and Practice states:

Witnesses appearing before a committee may be assisted by counsel, but they must first seek the committee’s permission. Counsel, when permitted [by committee members], is restricted to an advisory role and may neither ask questions nor reply on the witness’s behalf.

Therefore, I would like to request the committee's permission for legal counsel to attend the meeting, without the opportunity to intervene or speak on the witness's behalf.

Is the committee in agreement?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I would also like to specify that the testimony of our witness is protected by parliamentary privilege.

House of Commons Procedure and Practice states the following:

Witnesses appearing before committees enjoy the same freedom of speech and protection from arrest and molestation as do Members of Parliament.

I now invite Ms. Chen to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Please go ahead, Ms. Chen.

Lauren Chen As an Individual

Seeing as how my lawyer will not be able to speak, we do request that this opening statement, which we have also submitted in writing, be filed as an exhibit to speak for itself.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Is the committee in agreement with this?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Very well.

Go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

I'll read it here.

Honourable members of the committee and Clerk of the Committee Larouche, I am here today as required by the summons delivered to me. My understanding is that you wish to ask me questions about a subject you are studying with a view of making recommendations as part of your legislative role. My understanding is that the subject you are studying is Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada.

In principle, I have no issue testifying before your committee. However, as you know, Canada and the United States are democratic countries that value civil rights. One right that is particularly important is the presumption of innocence and its companion right to remain silent. Both Canada and the United States strongly value the right to be free from self-incrimination.

Presently, I am a target of a criminal investigation in the case of the United States v. Kalashnikov, 24 CR519, Southern District of New York 2024. As such, I am entitled to certain protections given to me under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution, which provides that I cannot be forced to potentially incriminate myself while testifying under oath.

After consulting with counsel in both Canada and the United States, I have concluded, on their advice, that answering questions from this committee could reasonably provide a “link in the chain” toward a possible indictment against me with respect to the above-mentioned or related proceedings.

I recognize that the difficulty is that the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution does not apply in Canada. I am aware that I have no right to “plead the fifth” before this committee. I've been advised, and I do believe, that one policy reason behind Canada's lack of protection similar to the American fifth amendment is that Canada has a different form of protection located within section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which provides that if I testify in proceedings, I have the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given to be used to incriminate me in other proceedings subject to exceptions that would not apply here. Just as the American protection against self-incrimination is not formally recognized in Canada, however, section 13 of the charter is not formally recognized in the United States, so it would not be of assistance to me should I accede to answering any questions.

Accordingly, it is with the above considerations in mind that I must indicate that I will not answer any questions posed to me once I appear before this committee. I note in taking this position that section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects me in situations where section 13 does not apply where life, liberty or security interests are at stake. Considering the investigation taking place in respect of Kalashnikov, I verily believe that my refusal to answer questions is lawful and protected under section 7 of the charter.

I also assert respectfully that in the relatively unique circumstances in which I find myself, section 2(d) of the Canadian Bill of Rights, SC 1960, c. 44, as well as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which Canada is a signatory, protect my refusal to testify.

Please note that my refusal is contingent solely on my legitimate concerns about possible self-incrimination. Once the investigation has been completed and it is determined that there may be no future proceedings taken against me in respect of that or related matters, I wish this honourable committee to be aware that I would be willing to reattend before it and answer all questions on such a future date.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you.

We will start our first round with Ms. Dancho for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Chen, for being with us today.

We all note that you did not necessarily come willingly. You were summoned. I appreciate your opening testimony, but you outlined to this committee that you won't be answering any of our questions. It's quite frustrating for us, as committee members, to have a witness here for two hours who refuses to answer any questions.

Of course, you've been called here, as you outlined, with respect to the Russian disinformation study we're currently engaged in, notably because of your involvement in an indictment from the Department of Justice in the United States. I've gone through this indictment at length, and I'm deeply concerned about any involvement you and your company Tenet Media have had.

I have a number of questions for you. I hope that you will answer some of them and service the Canadian institutions you're here for. I remind you that this is a committee of Parliament. We are members of Parliament at this table. You've been rightfully summoned, and it is your obligation—as is my belief and that of our committee—that you should answer these questions. That is the duty you have to the Canadian institutions and that is why you are here today. We all work hard to serve this committee. This is the public safety and national security committee of Canada. I'd urge you to reconsider answering our questions. This is a very serious matter you are allegedly engaged in, according to this indictment. Again, I'd ask that you respectfully engage in a dialogue with us today and answer our questions.

There are a number of issues in here that I'd like to go over with you.

Of course, first and foremost, I'd like to ask you this: Were you directly receiving payments from Russia Today to proliferate propaganda from the Russian government to your North American audience?

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

For the reasons outlined in my opening statement, I have no comment.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Ms. Chen, again, I'd ask you to reconsider. The allegations in this indictment are very serious, and your reach is quite far.

I'll ask you about another issue.

Are you aware that Canada imposed special economic measures against Russia Today in 2022?

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

For the reasons already given, I will not be answering the question.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Are you aware that further sanctions were imposed on Russia Today's parent company in 2023, for example? Are you aware that the Russian state-owned media company, its parent company and the head of the international department of Russia Today are also sanctioned by the Canadian government?

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

For the reasons already given, I have no comment.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

All right.

Ms. Chen, did you ever receive payment from Russia Today for services rendered, prior to the war in Ukraine?

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

For the reasons already given, I have no comment.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

The indictment outlines that you wrote 25 opinion articles for Russia Today.

Can you confirm that?

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

For the reasons already given, I have no comment.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

This indictment, Ms. Chen, is quite serious, in that it alleges that you misled commentators about your company Tenet Media being paid by Russian agents, in essence.

Can you comment on that?

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

For the reasons already given, I have no comment.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

You can understand that the public safety and national security committee of Canada is incredibly concerned if there's a Canadian citizen, such as yourself, receiving $10 million, according to the indictment, and falsely misleading commentators on your platform about where that money is coming from, when the purpose of that commentary was to propagate Russian government positions that deliberately undermine the west.

Do you have any concerns about the moral authority of that?

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

For the reasons already given, I have no comment.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Mr. Chair, this is obviously quite frustrating. Ms. Chen has been called in front of this committee. The allegations are incredibly serious: that she took $10 million for her company from Russian agents and withheld the source of that funding from the commentators she hired for Tenet Media, with the purpose of proliferating Russian propaganda. As we know very well on this committee, Russia is an adversary to Canada that is looking to deliberately undermine this country and to see Canada weaken and fail.

I take great personal and moral issue with the idea that a fellow Canadian, Ms. Chen, would take large amounts of money to undermine the Canadian interest. Do you?

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Lauren Chen

For the reasons already given, I have no comment.