Public Safety Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I have been informed by the clerk that the speaking list is entirely in the purview of the chair, and it actually cannot be challenged.

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We will return to Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I will repeat what I said before. We took the time to summon a witness. She is sitting here ready to testify on an issue that we all think is important, and I think it's really unfortunate that we're delaying this.

I am going to propose a fairly substantial amendment to Mr. Morantz's motion. I do have it in both official languages. In essence, what it will do is amend Mr. Morantz's motion to reflect the motion I read previously.

I don't want to take the time to read it again, but I will say that I think all members should be concerned about the number of youth who are being radicalized and about the fact that it's being done on gaming platforms and on social media. We need to broaden the study to be more than just about one attack. There are multiple people.

I will move my amendment, and I'm assuming that you want to distribute it, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I think it's being distributed as we speak.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'll read it into the record:

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), given that recent court filings have revealed disturbing details about a thwarted ISIS linked bomb plot targeting Jewish Canadians on Parliament Hill and given the growing trend of violent extremism, in particular the increase in youth involvement, the committee invite Brigitte Gauvin, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police deputy commissioner for national security; representatives of the RCMP's federal policing integrated national security enforcement team; Robert Burley, executive director of the Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence; officials from Public Safety Canada and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service; the director of Parliamentary Protective Services; representatives from TikTok, X, Snapchat, Discord, Reddit, Facebook, Telegram, Minecraft and Roblox; and civil society and academic organizations, including the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs and B'nai Brith, to discuss the foiled terrorist plot, the rise of violent extremism, including anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, recent measures the federal government has undertaken to address it, and the role that social media and gaming platforms play in radicalizing youth and mobilizing violence; that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House; and, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

Mr. Chair, may I speak to it, briefly?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Yes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm not going to speak for a long time because I really do want to get to our witness.

I hope that members will recognize that this is a broad problem and one that we need to tackle. I know we have a lot on our plate, but I think it's important that we recognize the bigger issue that we have with young people being radicalized, whether it's to ISIS or to groups that target women the LGBTQ2 community or the Muslim community. I hope that all members will agree to this amendment and that we can move forward.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm just wondering whether we could have a brief suspension to discuss this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Next on the speaking list is Mr. Lloyd, so would you rather that Mr. Lloyd speak to it or would you rather, especially—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'll remain on the speaking list, but we'd like a short suspension.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Okay, we'll suspend.

I remind committee members that Ms. Southern has been waiting very graciously. She has flown from B.C. and this committee did summon her. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I call the meeting back to order.

Mr. Lloyd, you have the floor next.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'll be brief, Mr. Chair.

I believe that you ruled this amendment in order. I think, for a number of reasons, the precedent has been set that this amendment is out of scope of the original motion. It significantly changes the scope of the motion, so I would like to challenge the chair's ruling that this amendment is in order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

We are once again going to have a vote on whether the chair's ruling shall be sustained.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 7; nays 4)

Go ahead, Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you. I appreciate your consistency, Mr. Chair.

With that, I think it is important we get to the witnesses, so I would like to move that we adjourn debate on this amendment.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, as a point of clarification, is he adjourning debate on the entire topic or just the amendment? I want confirmation before we vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I'm being told by the clerk that, procedurally, it will be on the whole.

I'm seeing nodding across the room.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

We are adjourning debate on the motion and amendment.

Thank you for your patience, Ms. Southern.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on September 19, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada.

I'd like to now welcome our witness today, Ms. Lauren Southern.

Ms. Southern, for your benefit, I'd like to specify that your testimony, or that of any witness, is protected by parliamentary privilege. House of Commons Procedure and Practice states the following:

Witnesses appearing before committees enjoy the same freedom of speech and protection from arrest and molestation as do Members of Parliament.

Before we proceed, I have to inform the committee that the summons could not be served to Liam Donovan. The committee can decide whether they want to take any action on that.

We'll go to Ms. Southern for her opening statement.

[Lauren Southern, As an Individual]

Thank you.

Honourable Chair and esteemed members of this committee, I would like to thank you for so enthusiastically inviting me to speak today.

My name is Lauren Southern. I am a filmmaker, YouTuber and proud Canadian.

In late 2023, I was contracted to make weekly videos by a start-up company called Tenet Media. Recently, the U.S. Department of Justice released an indictment that alleges the founders of Tenet created the company in conjunction with two Russian citizens, with funding ultimately originating from the Russian government. Per the indictment, the founders of Tenet Media deceived the personalities they contracted regarding their alleged source of funding.

I'll make a few points clear at the outset.

First, at no point during my involvement with Tenet did I ever have knowledge of the allegations in the indictment.

Second, the only person who ever had any creative control over my videos was me. No one from Tenet or anywhere else ever dictated what topics I covered or what opinions I held.

I always seek to fight disinformation in all of its forms and therefore I have a duty to inform this committee that disinformation has been spreading within these very walls. Some in the media and even witnesses to this committee have attempted to paint a picture of Tenet as a hugely influential player in the political media landscape. This, frankly, is just not true.

A previous witness at this committee, who went unchallenged, stated that Tenet Media controlled a network of over 16 million subscribers. This is not true. On their largest platform, YouTube, Tenet had barely over 300,000 subscribers. I believe the 16 million figure referred to the total number of subscribers among all of the personalities who had videos contracted or licensed by Tenet. With a subscriber base like that, given all of the facts, Tenet had absolutely no control over.... To claim that Tenet controlled those subscribers would be like claiming that a TV network had influence over the United States presidency because they air reruns of The Apprentice. The same witness claimed Tenet garnered over one billion video views and 20 billion impressions. I have absolutely no idea where those numbers came from. Very readily available public data shows that, on its largest platform, YouTube, Tenet received only 16 million total views.

Based on the witness's specious numbers, he asserted that Russia received “extraordinary value for money.” Anyone with even a cursory understanding of new media would know, however, that $10 million for 16 million views on YouTube hardly qualifies as extraordinary value. In fact, it qualifies as a total failure. Therefore, there is in fact a silver lining here if the allegations are true. It appears Russia did attempt to influence western media, but they failed pretty miserably.

Now, I know the chief concern of this committee is how this debacle may have influenced Canadians. Well, I was the only Canadian commentator and the only host who consistently discussed Canadian issues. In fact, if the company had any creative control over me, which they didn't, they probably would have asked me to stop making Canadian videos, since they didn't perform very well. Therefore, if you were worried about this alleged Russian money unduly influencing Canadian issues, I have good news: It didn't happen.

I'll be honest. It has been surreal for me to watch our government, experts and media assert that scripts I would jot down in my notes app in line at the grocery store were secretly part of a giant foreign influence campaign. Arguably, the largest actual impact on Canadians here has been the number of tax dollars they've had to spend investigating this non-issue.

Some in the media and this government seem to have concluded that the only reason a regular Canadian could possibly hold certain views that do not align with the current Liberal administration is because of pernicious, widespread Russian disinformation. I would like to propose an alternative hypothesis. I know it may sound insane. I know this breaches the borders of conceivable thought, but maybe, just maybe, some Canadians consulted their own moral compass and decided they don't want this country funding foreign wars. Maybe they look around at hospital lineups or housing prices and think immigration might be a little high. Maybe they lost their business during lockdown and think, “I worry about my freedoms in this country.”

Some in this government are hell-bent on drastically exaggerating the extent of foreign influence because they can't seem to stomach the idea that they might be wrong about something and that a growing majority of Canadians legitimately and organically oppose what they are doing. They simply can't conceive that they are becoming unpopular naturally, so there must be foul play at work.

Let me make this abundantly clear once more: No one but me, through my true experiences as a Canadian, has informed my opinions. To any members of this government who may be listening, I would suggest you familiarize yourselves with these opinions, because they are rapidly becoming the views of the majority of this nation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Ms. Southern.

We'll start with the questions.

Mr. Lloyd, you have six minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Southern, for coming to this committee today. This has been a very interesting study, and I found your statement today interesting, and it answered a number of the questions that I was going to have for you, but I still have some additional questions.

The indictment itself—and you have read the indictment, I assume—alleges that RT employees and Tenet Media used a fake persona named Eduard Grigoriann to deceive the commentators. Were you ever approached to make content by someone posing as Eduard Grigoriann?

[Lauren Southern]

No, during the call I had, well over a year ago now, that signed me up for the company, I was told vaguely about a tech investor. I can't remember the exact name I was given, but I never spoke to someone named Eduard Grigoriann.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

When were you first approached to do work for Tenet Media?

[Lauren Southern]

I wish I could remember the exact date, but it would have been probably four months before the company launched.