Public Safety Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 130 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I'd like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hands if you wish to speak, whether participating via Zoom or in person. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

I do see that Ms. Michaud has her hand up.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

With your permission, Mr. Chair, I would like to speak before we begin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Go ahead.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I tabled a notice of motion regarding Canada's borders two days ago, and I'd like us to debate it immediately. I've previously discussed it with my colleagues and I believe I have the support of all parties, at least the Conservatives and Liberals. We could do this very quickly before we welcome the witness. Everyone has received the motion, but I'm going to read it again:

That pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study of the consequences to Canada of the measures announced by Donald Trump during the American presidential campaign concerning the deportation of persons illegally present in the United States, and of the Canadian Federal Government’s plan to ensure border security and compliance with federal immigration law and policies. That the committee invites the following witnesses to testify: 1. For two hours each accompanied by senior officials of their respective departments: a. The Honourable Dominic LeBlanc, Minister of Public Safety. b. The Honourable Marc Miller, Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship. 2. For one hour each: a. Ms. Kirsten Hillman, Canadian Ambassador to the United States. b. Mr. David L. Cohen, United States Ambassador to Canada. c. Ms. Chrystia Freeland, Chair of the committee on Canada-US Relations. d. Mr. Michael Duheme, Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. e. Ms. Erin O’Gorman, the President of the Canada Border Services Agency. 3. As well as any witnesses the committee deems necessary, in accordance with the committee’s usual practices. That the committee give priority to this study and report its observations to the House.

I therefore move that we briefly debate it now.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

There's a motion on the floor from Ms. Michaud. Would anyone like to debate it? I'm seeing nodding heads.

If there is unanimous consent from the committee, can we adopt this motion?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Go ahead, Mr. Morantz.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Mr. Chair, I have a matter I'd like to quickly bring up before we get to the witnesses.

I have a motion which has been on notice. I'd like to move it, and read it into the record:

Given that recent court filings have revealed disturbing details about a thwarted ISIS linked bomb plot targeting Jewish Canadians on Parliament Hill, and given that hate crimes have increased 251% over the past nine years,

The committee immediately prioritize a study to investigate the dramatic rise in terrorist plots and acts of violence targeting Canada's Jewish community, including the thwarted terror attack on Parliament Hill; that the study be comprised of no less than six meetings; that the Minister of Public Safety, the Special Advisor on Jewish Community Relations and Antisemitism to the Prime Minister, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Commissioner, the Director of the Parliamentary Protective Service, the Director of Canadian Security Intelligence Service and other law enforcement officials, and civil society and academic organizations, including the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs and B'nai Brith, be invited to testify as part of this study; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

Mr. Chair, briefly, this is a very important motion given what happened. I was at that rally last December where there were hundreds of people on the front lawn of Parliament Hill. If the RCMP hadn't done their good work in foiling this plot, the carnage would have been something which we would have never been able to accept.

The revelations about this foiled terrorist attack on Parliament Hill against the Jewish community strikes at the very heart of our democracy. It's something that parliamentarians should be very concerned about.

I want to thank my colleague, MP Raquel Dancho, a fellow Winnipegger, for bringing forward this important motion.

We have an important witness here today, so I suggest that we quickly get to a vote on this motion so that we can get back to the witness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Mr. Morantz.

This motion was originally brought forward by Ms. Dancho.

The motion is on the floor.

I recognize Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I thank the honourable member for his words. I agree with him. It's extremely concerning what's going on right now. I've had numerous conversations with Rabbi Stephen Wise in my riding about the rise of anti-Semitism.

I just read an article about the number of youth being radicalized to ISIS. We also have another problem in this country, which is the rise of Islamophobia and the rise of youth being radicalized, predominantly online.

Chair, I also had put in a motion.

I'm hoping that we can deal with Ms. Southern, who's taken the time to come in today, and we've summoned them.

I would like to read the motion that I have. I'm hoping that we can have a more fulsome debate on this at a future meeting.

The motion that I had proposed—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I'm sorry, Ms. Damoff.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I don't preclude my great colleague from introducing her motion—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm not introducing it. I'm just going to read what I'm going to put forward. I'm not introducing it.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

You're not moving the motion?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm not moving it right now. I just want to read what I would be proposing.

It reads:

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), and given the growing trend of violent extremism, in particular, the increase in youth involvement, the committee invite Brigitte Gauvin, Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) deputy commissioner for national security, representatives of the RCMP's federal policing integrated national security enforcement team, Robert Burley, executive director of the Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence, officials from Public Safety Canada and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, representatives from TikTok, X, Snapchat, Discord, Reddit, Facebook, Telegram, Minecraft and Roblox to discuss the foiled terrorist plot against the Ottawa Jewish community, the rise of violent extremism, including anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, recent measures the federal government has undertaken to address it, and the role that social media and gaming platforms play in radicalizing youth and mobilizing violence.

Chair, I could amend Mr. Morantz's motion to reflect what I would like to bring forward, but given that we have summoned this witness to be with us today, I'd like to move that we adjourn debate. We can return to it at a future meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

That is a dilatory motion.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I just want to clarify because the member did preface that with the condition that given we have a witness here, which makes it non-dilatory.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

No, it's not debatable.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I think that is a debatable motion. If the motion had been simply “I move that we adjourn debate”, then I would agree that it's a dilatory motion.

If you look back on what she actually said, she said, “given that we have summoned this witness to be with us today, I'd like to move that we adjourn debate.” I think you should consult with the clerk because I believe that makes the motion conditional and subject to debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

From my review of the rules, which I reviewed very recently actually, it's not. I think the motion is in order. We have a motion on the floor to adjourn debate on this.

Mr. Lloyd, go ahead on a point of order.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I wish to challenge the chair on that.

This is from page 1068 of chapter 20 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, by Bosc and Gagnon: “If a dilatory motion is accompanied by a condition, it becomes a substantive motion. It is then subject to the rules on the admissibility of such motions. It also becomes debatable and amendable.”

I believe your ruling would be incorrect, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

From my interpretation, I don't think there was a condition attached to what Ms. Damoff said. They're shaking their heads.

There is a challenge to the chair in my second meeting.

Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

The decision of the chair is sustained; therefore, we go back to the motion brought by Ms. Damoff to adjourn debate on the motion that was brought forward by Mr. Morantz.

We will have a recorded vote.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

The motion to adjourn is defeated.

We return to the speaking order. The speaking order, I have been told, is actually at the discretion of the chair, and technically, Ms. Damoff still has the floor.

I have Mr. Lloyd right after that. Then I have Ms. Michaud and then Mr. Johns. That is the order as it stands right now.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

On a point of order, Chair, I believe that once a member moves a motion, it ends the member's speaking turn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I've been told by the clerk that, in practice, we've seen both.

The same benefit that I extend to Ms. Damoff today, I promise to extend to all parties today and in future meetings.

Ms. Damoff, you have the floor.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Chair, on a point of order, I hate to do this to you on your second day, but again, we're going to have to challenge the chair on that ruling.