Public Safety Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I call this meeting to order.

I ask that the media please stop recording. Thank you.

Welcome to meeting number 133 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I'd like to remind participants of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Before we move on to the supplementary estimates, I have two matters regarding draft budgets that I quickly want to dispose of for the members.

We know that the clerk has distributed two draft budgets. One is from last week, for our study on Indian interference, totalling $21,250, and another is from yesterday, for our current meeting on supplementary estimates (B), amounting to $500. Are there any questions or comments?

Is it the will of the committee to adopt both budgets?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

The second matter is on our draft report on the growing problem of car thefts in Canada. The clerk distributed on Thursday, November 28, the new recommendation 42, which was prepared by the analysts following our in camera meeting on Tuesday, November 26. Are there any questions or comments?

Is it the will of the committee to adopt recommendation 42?

Go ahead, Madame Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the analysts for their work on this recommendation.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think it's in keeping with the spirit of what the Conservatives were originally looking for with these recommendations. These recommendations have a lot to do with provincial and Quebec jurisdiction. For the Bloc Québécois, it will be difficult to adopt or accept them.

I don't know what the other parties think, but, for my part, I won't be able to vote in favour of these recommendations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Go ahead, Ms. Dancho.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I think we can take this conversation off-line and perhaps address it at another time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Okay. We will come back to the draft report, seeing as there might be debate on it. We'll go on to today's meeting.

Pursuant to the order of reference of November 18, 2024, the committee begins its study of supplementary estimates (B), 2024-25.

I would like to welcome our witnesses for both hours.

From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Erin O'Gorman, president, and Ryan Pilgrim, chief financial officer.

We have, from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, Daniel Rogers, director, and Jérome Laliberté, chief financial officer and deputy director of administration.

From the Correctional Service of Canada, we have Anne Kelly, commissioner; France Gratton, acting senior deputy commissioner; and Tony Matson, assistant commissioner and chief financial officer, corporate services.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Tricia Geddes, deputy minister, and Patrick Amyot, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer.

From the Parole Board of Canada, we have Joanne Blanchard, chairperson, and Claudine Legault, chief financial officer.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Michael Duheme, commissioner, and Samantha Hazen, chief financial officer.

Please note that Minister LeBlanc will join the officials for the second hour.

I understand that the Department of Public Safety, the RCMP and the CBSA have prepared opening statements.

I now invite Ms. Geddes to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Thank you.

[Tricia Geddes, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Good morning, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.

Good morning, committee members.

Thank you for inviting me to speak today about the supplementary estimates (B) for Public Safety Canada.

As many of you know, we are a very busy department that supports not only a number of agencies, but also our own programs. Our mandate touches on borders, human and drug trafficking, corrections, national security and emergency preparedness, among others.

While my colleagues will be talking about their organization's budget, I will be talking about the budget for programs and activities that fall within the mandate of the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. The funding we are requesting today will enable our department to continue its vital work on the issues that matter most to Canadians.

I'll just give you a few examples.

Today we are seeking $45.8 million for Public Safety Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency to continue to combat auto theft. While the numbers in early 2024 showed a decrease of 17% in the number of auto thefts compared to the previous year, we know that criminal networks quickly adapt and that we must be prepared.

We are also seeking additional funding to make significant investments in policing strategies, border control and community gang prevention. Our goal is to reduce the number of firearms entering our communities, and the number of gun crimes committed in our highest-risk communities.

Another way we are working to keep our communities safer is through Canada's first-ever action plan on combatting hate. The action plan includes the Canada community security program. This program replaces the security infrastructure program and provides time-limited funding to private not-for-profit organizations that are at risk of experiencing hate-motivated crime.

Eligible recipients include places of worship, provincially and territorially recognized private educational institutions, shelters for victims of gender-based violence, community centres, cemeteries, child care centres, and office and administrative spaces. The $14.9 million in budgetary expenditures will allow us to continue this work, which has become so crucial, particularly in the face of hate crime that has increased due to geopolitical tensions.

Our portfolio also includes emergency preparedness and management. One key component of that work is disaster financial assistance arrangements. These arrangements allow us to provide financial assistance to provinces and territories in the event of large-scale natural disasters, as we did this summer for Yukon flooding and last winter following significant snowstorms in Nova Scotia. This program will continue to be crucial as we see an ever-increasing number of extreme weather events. To that end, we are seeking to reprofile $800 million from a previous year.

Mr. Chair and committee members, these are just a few examples, but I once again want to thank you for inviting me to speak about and underscore the importance of funding to help fulfill Public Safety Canada's mandate of keeping Canada secure for all.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

I now invite Commissioner Duheme to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Commissioner Michael Duheme, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

Honourable committee members, thank you for providing me with the opportunity to speak to you today about the RCMP's supplementary estimates (B) for the 2024-25 fiscal year. I'm here with Sam Hazen, our chief financial officer.

I'll provide some background on the RCMP and our financial structure, which will help to situate today's discussion on the supplementary estimates (B).

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP, is Canada's national police force. It is a complex organization, involved in law enforcement at the community, provincial, territorial and federal levels. It also fulfils international obligations, such as peace missions and building relationships with overseas partners, including the Group of Five in the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand.

The RCMP has approximately 32,000 employees, two-thirds of whom are sworn police officers; the other third are non-sworn civilian members and public servants. These employees provide frontline policing services under 165 contracts with provincial, territorial and municipal governments, as well as in 600 indigenous communities across Canada.

We are responsible for addressing increasingly serious and complex criminal threats in Canada in areas such as terrorism and extremism, drugs and organized crime, national security, protective policing and border integrity.

As you are aware, border integrity has been top of mind in recent weeks, and I want to assure members of this committee that we continue to work with our portfolio and law enforcement partners across the country, as well as south of the border, to ensure that we are prepared to address any border concerns.

The RCMP also provides its law enforcement partners with specialized operational policing services, including advanced training, weapons licensing and investigative and forensic services.

I would like to emphasize that the work being done at the RCMP in 2024 has built on the significant progress already made in modernizing policing to respond to the ever-changing threats and to transform the culture of the organization in ways that build trust. This means constantly finding ways to take better care of our employees, to treat all our customers with dignity and respect, and to do our policing in ways that inspire ever greater trust.

Real and sustained change takes time, and we know that there's more work to do.

Through the 2024-25 supplementary estimates (B), the RCMP expects to access $721 million, mainly attributed to the following: $440 million for the contract policing program to address growth in the contract policing program, enabling the continuance of program delivery; $45.4 million in advanced funding, as Canada assumes the presidency of the G7 in 2025, to undertake site visits, initiate security planning and coordination, and begin advanced procurement of security equipment; $26 million in support of providing protective services to public figures; $16 million to support foreign interference-related criminal investigations; $7.6 million to continue implementing activities in support of Canada's migrant smuggling prevention strategy; and $2.4 million to support Canada's continued response to the security crisis in Haiti.

With that, I would like to again thank the committee for the opportunity to meet with you. I'm pleased to take any questions you may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I now invite Ms. O'Gorman to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

[Erin O'Gorman, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to describe the funding that has been provided for the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, in these supplementary estimates.

As part of a 2021 commitment to recapitalize port infrastructure, the CBSA received approval to build up to 24 new land ports of entry with a budget of $481 million.

These investments will enhance the experience of travellers crossing the border, provide border services officers with improved infrastructure and technology, and support security. The CBSA is receiving $23.1 million in these supplementary estimates (B) to complete planning and begin construction at the Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle port of entry.

Thus far, we have completed port of entry infrastructure improvements in Fraser, British Columbia; Bloomfield, New Brunswick; and Ste-Aurélie, Quebec.

Work is underway at two other ports of entry, Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle and Wild Horse.

The government's national action plan on combatting auto theft outlines steps that we are taking to disrupt, dismantle and prosecute organized crime. It builds on the successes and collaborative efforts with our provincial, territorial, municipal and industry partners, following the national summit on combatting auto theft held last February.

The first quarterly update of the action plan was published on October 16.

To date, in 2024, the CBSA has intercepted more than 2,100 stolen vehicles, which already surpasses last year's total of 1,806.

We work closely with the appropriate police department, coordinate our efforts, conduct joint operations and share information within intelligence groups.

The $30.8 million in supplementary estimates includes funding to enhance our intelligence capacity, put border service officers at the rail yards in the greater Toronto area, increase the number of export exams we undertake and assess new technologies, among other things.

Finally, the CBSA is accessing $2.1 million for a market watch unit for trade remedy measures. With this funding, the CBSA will regularly update normal values to make sure that duties accurately reflect current levels of dumping.

These are the highlights of the supplementary estimates for the CBSA.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

I now open the floor up to questions. It's the first round.

We'll begin with Ms. Dancho for six minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the officials for being here. It's nice to see you all. Certainly we have issues in our country that concern every single one of you, and we appreciate your hard work.

Top of mind has been the threat of a 25% tariff from President-elect Donald Trump and its impact. That is certainly related to border security.

I would like to speak with Ms. O'Gorman regarding her department and the challenges that she is facing, in particular in between ports of entry.

Ms. O'Gorman, what efforts have you made in the last week to ensure there's more surveillance beyond the ports of entry themselves?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I can happily speak to the efforts of the CBSA when it comes to port security. I'll say a few words and then defer to my colleague, the commissioner of the RCMP, who has the mandate between the ports.

We work closely every day with our U.S. counterparts in terms of securing our shared border. We exchange information with them. Operationally, we are embedded in their targeting centres and we are awaiting an embedded officer from the CBP to come and join our targeting centre in the near future.

We speak regularly at the head of agency level, but, more importantly, every day at the officer level. I have recently, probably a year ago now, appointed an executive director operational officer responsible for combatting firearms, and a separate executive director responsible for combatting opioids.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

The union president of the Customs and Immigration Union mentioned some of the frustrations of our frontline officers for policing the border. He said:

The situation is so silly now that if our officers are sitting at one of their workplaces and they see someone crossing just off to where the port is, we have to call the RCMP.

It seems there is frustration with our border officers. If they are literally seeing individuals crossing right out of their jurisdiction, they can't apprehend them. Can you comment on those challenges?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Sure.

I will say that this has never been raised to my attention. This was new information to me when I read it in the paper.

As we meet with our officers at land and air ports of entry and marine ports, we often talk about the challenges, about how we can better support their work and move resources around to face the changing threats they're seeing.

It hasn't been raised to my attention. If that is an issue, I'm happy to undertake the work it would take to address any legislative constraints. It would obviously be up to Parliament to make any final determination there. I'm open to anything that makes us more effective at the border, but this is not something that I've—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Ms. O'Gorman.

You mentioned earlier that you are aware, of course, that the jurisdiction for CBSA is not in between the ports. That's the RCMP. You are aware of those limitations, of course. Certainly we've seen reports from the U.S. border patrol about well over 20,000 people crossing between those ports of entry into the United States, and this certainly is an issue that is known in that regard.

To the commissioner of the RCMP in particular, the RCMP has the responsibility between ports of entry, of course, and I have concerns about the limitations of our staffing numbers to police 9,000 kilometres of border without the CBSA supporting those efforts between the ports.

I believe there's been a recent announcement that 25% of Atlantic Canada's RCMP officers will be moved to the border. Is that media report a correct assessment?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I don't recall positioning myself or the organization at 25%. Deputy Commissioner Flynn might have.

The important thing to understand is that we do have that surge capacity within the organization. We saw it in events with Roxham Road, where we mobilized our folks from Montreal—some investigation teams—to the border. These people now have gone back to their respective units. Actually, the people who are assigned to the border are covering more of the border now that nobody is coming into Roxham Road and we can spread those people apart.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate that very much. Certainly the RCMP officers and our border officers work very hard, and I'm very grateful for their courage and their dedication to the job.

My concern is that the RCMP is facing staffing issues across the country, particularly in rural and northern Canada. If the idea is to pull from those resources, would that not endanger, say, rural Manitoba? I know that my home province does face RCMP staffing issues, and we do have border crossers between the many kilometres between our ports of entry in that regard. Wouldn't there be a concern for those local communities if those RCMP resources were pulled and put in between the ports?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

The staffing issues that we're addressing right now are well known, and I would like to highlight that I've been working closely with Public Safety and the minister to acquire new technology to reduce the impact on resources so that we can rely more on technology and...I'm not going to say “reduce the footprint”, but to use human resources accordingly with the latest technology that we have for the border.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

Ms. O'Gorman, will there be more boots on the ground in the next six weeks at the border, more officers to help in these efforts?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Will we be there?

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

That's correct.

[Erin O'Gorman]

We are always, as I said, moving our resources around to where the threats are. We have the ability to staff according to volumes, which does give us a flexibility. There's an impact every time we move people around, potentially, in terms of wait times. We have established wait time commitments, but we can change those if the threat increases.

I'm not worried about our ability to move people around. In fact, we're actively doing that right now as we look at potential risks relating to a northern border surge. We haven't seen those numbers increase at all at the ports of entry, but we have people who would be reassigned and moved from where they are. We do that every summer. We do that on a regular basis.